Quick humane kills.....

[jmez]

The tension will only occur if there is an inlet for the air and no outlet. The hole or holes have to act as a one way valve. On inspiration air enters chest cavity, on expiration pressure causes the wound to flap closed and the air can't get back out. That wouldn't be real common in an animal that has a hole completely through the thorax and lungs.

 

[Lukem]

It's difficult to compare an olympic athletes performance in this case. Particularly a swimmer. Their bodies have been trained to utilize anaerobic metabolism for that brief burst of activity, whereas us normal folks (and critters) function on aerobic metabolism. The difference is utilizing oxygen for cellular metabolism versus stored glucose. In order for a body to perform at a high level utilizing anaerobic (sugar) metabolism vs aerobic (oxygen) would require significant training of the body to function at a high level while anaerobic. There is also a factor of those athletes greatly increasing their functional oxygen reserve and aerobic capacity so they are able to utilize more stored O2 prior to needing to switch to burning sugar. Obviously it's much more complicated than that, but that's a good breakdown.

There is a relatively significant amount of reserve oxygen capacity in our blood and lungs (a few minutes, give or take) to maintain life. The sudden loss of consciousness described by many is most likely caused by lack of blood flow, and less likely to be caused by lack of oxygen in the blood. That loss of blood flow can be most rapidly caused by severing of the great vessels coming off of the heart (aorta, pulmonary veins and arteries, vena cavea), pump failure (tension pneumo, massive tissue damage to the heart, or CNS disruption that causes electrical signals to the heart to stop telling it to beat) Hydrostatic shock from high velocity rounds can cause massive tissue damage to the heart muscle without actually penetrating the heart itself, which is the likely cause that rifle shots could cause sudden death, while an arrow through the heart will still allow the heart to pump enough to allow an animal to run some distance.

Thank you Goober! Good info.

 

[Beendare]

I think the many mechanisms in the body are fascinating.

One would think that an arrow to the heart would just shut down their system and cut off blood pressure to everything...but as always in these different scenarios- it depends.

i was in Az hunting elk in unit 9 in back in the 90s and shot a bull that was fighting with another bull 30 feet away. I was debating at full draw if that was the bull I had been chasing as when their antlers are tangled and going at it like that- its tough to judge [for me anyway at the time as they all looked big!]

Well they were really going at it and getting closer when the one I thought was the big boy flipped the other bull right on his back...at about 20 feet away. I shot and the arrow hit very low in the chest....a pass thru. The bull was standing over the other bull and it reminded me of that Ali standing over Frazier...



same deal...except the blood was pulsing in big spurts out of both sides of that bull about 6 feet- it was crazy.

The bull finally realized I was standing there and took off- it seemed like a long time but was really maybe 5 seconds. The bull made it maybe 20 yds in a sideways run and went down thrashing. I know now, if you hit a portion of the heart, it can still keep pumping....

 

[Goober]

Lukem, Happy to offer some insight. As a midwesterner on this site, I read a lot and usually dont have a lot to offer. But as a firefighter paramedic, flight medic and tactical medic, you are right in my wheelhouse when we start talking trauma!

 

[16Bore]

Hard to predict how something with the will to live is going to react when shot. Think about all our soldiers with Purple Hearts.

DRT is one of the most overblown and overrated terms in hunting.

Just my opinion. I've heard all the "what if" stories....

 

[WoodBow]

The heart is a muscle so it has fairly thick walls. A broadhead hole can still allow the heart to function in some capacity. The thick walls help prevent leakage from the cut. Vessels are quite thin walled and will spray even if only nicked.

I think a pure heart shot can allow them to run a ways even if the heart entirely stops functioning, due to the residual oxygen in the blood, as mentioned by others.

I was cleaning some whitetails this weekend and noticed what a beautiful cluster of vessels come out of the ribcage below the neck. That is a very small target by man oh man would they paint the ground.

 

[Lukem]

The heart is a muscle so it has fairly thick walls. A broadhead hole can still allow the heart to function in some capacity. The thick walls help prevent leakage from the cut. Vessels are quite thin walled and will spray even if only nicked.

I think a pure heart shot can allow them to run a ways even if the heart entirely stops functioning, due to the residual oxygen in the blood, as mentioned by others.

I was cleaning some whitetails this weekend and noticed what a beautiful cluster of vessels come out of the ribcage below the neck. That is a very small target by man oh man would they paint the ground.

Agree.

I'd make a joke about aiming for the femoral, but I've unfortunately made that shot. Double femoral and it took ~20 min for the deer to die. I had a shot on the back side of the tree once and as I was squeezing, out of my peripheral vision noticed a limb stub that my string was going to hit. Major flinch and the arrow went. 2 blade rage went parallel to the ground through the hams and hit both femorals. Massive blood, but took a while for her to die, tried to sneak and get a second shot, but no luck. Had to sit and wait. Urban issues...

I've also nicked the vessel along the backbone a couple times too. That one is quick.

 

[Beendare]

Lukem, do you mean like this? grin

Agree.

I'd make a joke about aiming for the femoral, but I've unfortunately made that shot. Double femoral and it took ~20 min for the deer to die. .

Of course this wasn't intended...the bull took a step on the shot from 55 yds....he went down in 30 yds.
The arrows broke off so this is setup pic to show where they hit....2 ex pro shooters shot at the same time across an avalanche chute

 

[WoodBow]

I would venture to say that hitting a major vessel within muscle has the potential to not bleed out quite as fast due to the muscle providing some support to the vessel. This is purely conversational. I don't think anyone is intentionally targeting the femoral. I shot a spike last year that was hard quartered away. The window to the vitals was small but he was very close. Either I pulled it or he moved a couple of inches at the shot. Arrow center punched the ham. He trotted off a few steps and just stood there looking around. I tried to get another arrow on for a follow up but he saw me fumbling around and moved into cover. I was sick. I figured I hit the femoral and there will be blood everywhere and he will not go far, or it was just a flesh wound. I only found one small spot of blood and I saw none on him when he was standing there. I did not put much effort into finding him because what I was seeing said pure muscle hit. I found what was left of him a few days later within 70 yards of the stand. I felt like a real piece of crap. Not my proudest moment but i learned my lesson. The arrow was still in him the last time I saw him so I guess the shot could have been pure muscle and then hitting the shaft on brush could have caused the broadhead to cut the vessel. I will never know.

 

[tlowell02]

Agree.

I'd make a joke about aiming for the femoral, but I've unfortunately made that shot. Double femoral and it took ~20 min for the deer to die. I had a shot on the back side of the tree once and as I was squeezing, out of my peripheral vision noticed a limb stub that my string was going to hit. Major flinch and the arrow went. 2 blade rage went parallel to the ground through the hams and hit both femorals. Massive blood, but took a while for her to die, tried to sneak and get a second shot, but no luck. Had to sit and wait. Urban issues...

I've also nicked the vessel along the backbone a couple times too. That one is quick.

If the femoral artery is severed, that animal won't be alive long. Not purposefully but twice I have shot deer in the pelvic area and severely damaged the artery and both died within 50 yards. One left a pretty good blood trail and the other didn't leave a drop. In fact, we didn't know where it was shot until it was skinned.

The dorsal aorta works too. Neither location is something I would want to aim for though.

 

[Lukem]

If the femoral artery is severed, that animal won't be alive long. Not purposefully but twice I have shot deer in the pelvic area and severely damaged the artery and both died within 50 yards. One left a pretty good blood trail and the other didn't leave a drop. In fact, we didn't know where it was shot until it was skinned.

The dorsal aorta works too. Neither location is something I would want to aim for though.

"won't" It's those difinitives that that drive us nuts. Like 5MB's cow with no heart. Mine would have likely died within 100 yards had I not gotten down and jumped her out of her bed trying to get another shot. I expected a muscle hit, but her bed was a massive pool of blood, and the blood trail was something else too, moreso than a muscle hit should be. I looked to see what I hit when I dressed her, definitely femoral. The 20 min estimate probably overshoots it, but I jumped her at 10+ and then got out when she ran. Found her another 100 yards away 6 hours later. Wish I'd have taken pics.

 

[Lukem]

View attachment 43808

Of course this wasn't intended...the bull took a step on the shot from 55 yds....he went down in 30 yds.
The arrows broke off so this is setup pic to show where they hit....2 ex pro shooters shot at the same time across an avalanche chute
View attachment 43809

Lol. They were sure on target, it just moved.

 

[Lukem]

Lukem, Happy to offer some insight. As a midwesterner on this site, I read a lot and usually dont have a lot to offer. But as a firefighter paramedic, flight medic and tactical medic, you are right in my wheelhouse when we start talking trauma!

Yeah, similar boat. I don't spend enough time in the mountains physically (my head is there often...) to offer the expertise that many do here.

 

[Goober]

"won't" It's those difinitives that that drive us nuts. Like 5MB's cow with no heart. Mine would have likely died within 100 yards had I not gotten down and jumped her out of her bed trying to get another shot. I expected a muscle hit, but her bed was a massive pool of blood, and the blood trail was something else too, moreso than a muscle hit should be. I looked to see what I hit when I dressed her, definitely femoral. The 20 min estimate probably overshoots it, but I jumped her at 10+ and then got out when she ran. Found her another 100 yards away 6 hours later. Wish I'd have taken pics.

Not to disagree with you- I wasn't there and you were, but for the sake of discussion:

Is it possible that your hit was through the vena cavea- aka the large vein bringing return blood flow from the lower extremity back to the heart? Would be nearly the same size and in nearly the same area. But also under much less pressure, which allows surrounding tissues to often slow the flow of blood loss. Still high volume blood loss, especially in the beginning when blood pressure remains high. As blood pressure lowers (due to blood loss), venous blood flow/loss would slow significantly more so than arterial.

Just a thought.

 

[cnelk]

Re: Quick Humane Kills

A few years ago I was in my tree stand hunting elk one evening.

This young elk came in and messed up a shot opportunity I had on a bull.
I went back the next night and sat again, but not before telling my buddies that if that elk came in again I was gonna shoot it right in the head.

Guess what.
That elk came in again and stood right below my stand.

I am good for my word. I put that SlickTrick right above its left eye

A quick humane kill - 4yds
Zero tracking

 

[aclawrence]

Re: Quick Humane Kills

A few years ago I was in my tree stand hunting elk one evening.

This young elk came in and messed up a shot opportunity I had on a bull.
I went back the next night and sat again, but not before telling my buddies that if that elk came in again I was gonna shoot it right in the head.

Guess what.
That elk came in again and stood right below my stand.

I am good for my word. I put that SlickTrick right above its left eye

A quick humane kill - 4yds
Zero tracking

I'm glad that turned out well for you. It would have been awful to hit the nose or mouth.

 

[16Bore]

I was going to say the same....coulda been bad, etc, blah, blah....but I think there are times where you just know that there is no way you'll miss. And it's not just the distance, angle, whatever. You just know. Kinda like a Zen thing I guess you could say.

 

[Lukem]

Not to disagree with you- I wasn't there and you were, but for the sake of discussion:

Is it possible that your hit was through the vena cavea- aka the large vein bringing return blood flow from the lower extremity back to the heart? Would be nearly the same size and in nearly the same area. But also under much less pressure, which allows surrounding tissues to often slow the flow of blood loss. Still high volume blood loss, especially in the beginning when blood pressure remains high. As blood pressure lowers (due to blood loss), venous blood flow/loss would slow significantly more so than arterial.

Just a thought.

It's quite possible. Assumed it was femoral when I dressed her. 7 years ago, no pics and my knowledge of anatomy isn't spectacular. I couldn't tell you now which one I hit if you showed me the difference. lol.

Good catch tho.

I donated that deer and the butcher looked at me funny when he saw the 2" cut through the hams and no other wound.

 

[cnelk]

I know plenty of so called broadside shots that turned out poorly.

Like mentioned, not much of a chance of missing sometimes.
Especially when you practice at ALL ranges