Quick humane kills.....

[kodiakfly]

Does it matter how they die? I mean, if we're talking about what specific organ to aim at for the fastest death, aim for the brain. I've shot animals in heart and lungs each with mixed results. Some are talking about blood, some are talking about oxygen, but the fact is, they're both dependent on each other and both go to the brain. Blood with no oxygen is useless. Oxygen without blood is useless.

In my opinion there's too many variables to say one kills faster...animal's adrenaline, terrain it has to run over, how it reacts (does it stand here, walk away or run away) Ok, what about liver or kidneys? There's so much blood in those organs you'd probably lose as much or more more blood opening those up than the heart itself.

Shoot the heart or lungs solid and it'll die. One maybe in 6 seconds, the other in 8...and then on the next animal, it's the opposite.

 

[WoodBow]

I specifically shoot for major vessels. I aim for between the front legs just above the heart. Where the aortic arch comes off the heart, the vessels are very large diameter. About the size of your thumb. I do not want to hit the heart, but if i do , so be it. I see it as the tank drains faster if you cut the line and the pump is still running. A "double lung" hit can also very easily sever major vessels. The pulmonary arteries are a great target. If you blow through those, IMHO, that deer falls due to a rapid decrease in blood pressure and loss of blood supply to the brain, not because the lungs collapsed. I can hold my breath and run a pretty good ways. And I'm not a super fit wild animal. Have you ever seen someone put in a sleeper hold? The human body will pass out if blood supply to the brain is stopped for 3 seconds. That's what i am trying to do to animals. Cut if off at the source. I can stop breathing, as if my lungs collapsed, and it will be a minute minimum before I pass out. For what it's worth, I have made 6 bowkills this year on big game animals. I watched all but one of them die. Most in that 3 second time frame. The other one, I missed my mark and put a double lung hit first and then a lung/liver follow up. That animal was on it's feet for several minutes. If it had ran flat out the whole time it was on it's feet, I would have never found it.

 

[Blockcaver]

My observations are stationary animals live a lot longer than running animals with a double lung broadhead hit. Don't know all the medical reasons why but have observed it multiple times over my long archery hunting career.

 

[jmez]

My observations are stationary animals live a lot longer than running animals with a double lung broadhead hit. Don't know all the medical reasons why but have observed it multiple times over my long archery hunting career.

Stationary animals aren't using or requiring near as much oxygen as one running or exerting itself. You can hold your breath a lot longer sitting relaxed in a chair as apposed to running sprints.

 

[Lukem]

What role does shock play in all of this? An animal dying in 3-5 seconds isn't suffocation. If you've ever choked out an animal (I don't recommend it) it's a long process.

 

[Lukem]

I mean the brain can live for 4 minutes (or so) without O2. Ultimate COD might be loss of blood or suffocation, but neither of those happen in under 10 sec. It's a more complicated process than that to bring an animal down in a short amount of time.

 

[Blockcaver]

As far as the running animal going down quicker than stationary after a double lung hit, I attribute it to the animals attempt to breath deeper/quicker......the diaphragm may aid in the collapse of the punctured lungs. Also running seems to coat the entire insides of the lungs with blood more rapidly. The stationary animal may have less blood above the broadhead slice and be able to use the (impaired) lungs for a longer period of time. No test data other than a lot of observation around how a broadhead kills big game.

 

[Beendare]

I mean the brain can live for 4 minutes (or so) without O2. Ultimate COD might be loss of blood or suffocation, but neither of those happen in under 10 sec. It's a more complicated process than that to bring an animal down in a short amount of time.

We talking rifle or bow?

Of course a bullet that does serious damage to the CNS will drop them on the spot- there isn't a hunter on this site that hasn't seen that. The thing about a CNS shot with a rifle; its a fairly small target. Do you take head shots at 250yds? i'm sure there are some here that are capable, but shooting for the shoulder/ spine near center mass....gives the hunter a little bit of wiggle room if the shot is a little off.

Its really the same theory of giving your self some wiggle room with an arrow though instead of shooting high center most of us shoot low center....for many of the reasons previously mentioned.

There are a few folks- like Randy Ulmer- that do recommend that high back lung shot....I'm not one of them. I think its due to the fact he shoots a light arrow with mech head and wants to stay away from the shoulder...but not sure.

 

[Lukem]

We talking rifle or bow?

Of course a bullet that does serious damage to the CNS will drop them on the spot- there isn't a hunter on this site that hasn't seen that. The thing about a CNS shot with a rifle; its a fairly small target. Do you take head shots at 250yds? i'm sure there are some here that are capable, but shooting for the shoulder/ spine near center mass....gives the hunter a little bit of wiggle room if the shot is a little off.

Its really the same theory of giving your self some wiggle room with an arrow though instead of shooting high center most of us shoot low center....for many of the reasons previously mentioned.

There are a few folks- like Randy Ulmer- that do recommend that high back lung shot....I'm not one of them. I think its due to the fact he shoots a light arrow with mech head and wants to stay away from the shoulder...but not sure.

I'm talking archery. If the brain can live for 4 minutes w/o O2 and pure suffocation takes equally as long, something else has to go on for the actual function of shutting the body down in under 10 sec.

As a frame of reference, I had a pneumo ahead of an 800 m race once. I quit after 400m, it hurt like heck, but I still covered the distance in 60-65 sec and could have run farther. Granted it wasn't sucking, nor both lungs, but I question only being able to function for a few seconds running without being able to breathe. I mean, I'll gladly go outside and try it, but how is the underwater record 22:22? And the freediving record 120+ meters and well over 4 minutes? I'm just thinking it's more complicated than described.

 

[WoodBow]

They drop so fast because they pass out. Death follows in the next few minutes. Blood supply only has to be cut off/largely diminished to the brain for seconds for loss of consciousness to occur. In the human body, irreversible brain damage will occur if flow is not restored within the next 3-5 minutes.

Remember that video a year or so ago of the kid taking the frontal shot on the elk? It pumped flood out in a fountain for a few seconds and fell over dead. Major vessels cut. It's not rocket science.

 

[Lukem]

They drop so fast because they pass out. Death follows in the next few minutes. Blood supply only has to be cut off/largely diminished to the brain for seconds for loss of consciousness to occur. In the human body, irreversible brain damage will occur if flow is not restored within the next 3-5 minutes.

Remember that video a year or so ago of the kid taking the frontal shot on the elk? It pumped flood out in a fountain for a few seconds and fell over dead. Major vessels cut. It's not rocket science.

But is it just lack of O2 to the brain that causes unconsciousness? The body has interesting responses to trauma/blood loss/etc in regards to self preservation. It's been my understanding that massive drops in blood pressure lead the body into shock and that severe shock leads to death quickly. I could be wrong, but that's why I'm asking. Our heart basically pumps all our blood through our body once every minute or so. I'm sure wildlife is similar. Cut those veins/arteries and they bleed out quick. It isn't like turning on the tap IMO.

So you're saying full death takes several minutes to happen?

No, it's not rocket science, but it is heart surgery...

And that kid was Corey Jacobsen, awesome video.

 

[5MilesBack]

But is it just lack of O2 to the brain that causes unconsciousness?

I guess you could look at two different scenarios for comparison. How long can you hold your breath before passing out, and how long can you stay conscious with someone strangling you? Strangulation doesn't take long to put one unconscious. I'm willing to bet that most could hold their breath longer than they could stay conscious from the blood supply being cut off from their brain. So there is a difference at least in regards to blood versus O2.

On the other hand, my cow elk ran almost 1/4 mile without a heart.......so I've got nothing.

You're thinking of a different video......the one with the 13 yo kid was pretty awesome.

 

[Lukem]

I guess you could look at two different scenarios for comparison. How long can you hold your breath before passing out, and how long can you stay conscious with someone strangling you? Strangulation doesn't take long to put one unconscious. I'm willing to bet that most could hold their breath longer than they could stay conscious from the blood supply being cut off from their brain. So there is a difference at least in regards to blood versus O2.

On the other hand, my cow elk ran almost 1/4 mile without a heart.......so I've got nothing.

Ya good point, that happens pretty quick. Did a little quick reading and even the mechanics of how that happens is disputed, lol.

Was the cow shot in the heart or vessels above? Archery or rifle? A cut through the heart might just make the heart inefficient (to the point of eventual failure) and the heart might be able to keep pumping pushing a minimal amount of blood. It's even possible that the running action acts as it's own CPR of sorts, who knows?

EDIT...Just saw your other post 5MB. No idea on that...lol

 

[Lukem]

Ah, never saw the one with the 13 yr old.

 

[Beendare]

I think Mez explained the whole process well in his post.

Its pretty hard to disrupt the CNS with an arrow....but to end up with 2 lung shaped jello molds is fairly easy. <grin>

 

[5MilesBack]

Was the cow shot in the heart or vessels above? Archery or rifle?

I posted about it earlier in the thread........rifle from 75 yards, she ran 1/4 mile before she crumpled, there was no heart inside......just chunks and soup.

Just google "13 yo boy archery elk" and it should come up.

 

[Goober]

If we really want to get into the technicals, there is 2 kinds of pneumothorax. To break it down simply and gloss over some really technical stuff: A plain old pneumo isn't a real big deal, not always lethal and rarely quickly That happens when air leaks out of a rupture alveoli in the lungs and renders a portion of a lung ineffective. The pneumo caused my penetrating trauma that causes rapid demise is a tension pneumo. Happens when air is sucked into the space surrounding the lungs from a hole in the chest cavity, which causes a lung to collapse. That lung then collapses into the heart, and "squeezes" it, and does not allow it to fill with blood. Thus the heart is unable to effectively pump blood. Thus resulting in (relatively) fast loss of consciousness then death. The rate at which it happens is dependent on many variables obviously.

I had an arrow deflect this year and shot a mule deer in the brisket. It caused a simple pneumo, not a tension. Watched the deer run 20 steps, then walk 50, then lay down. Waited 45 minutes watching, waiting (I was unaware of where the hit was, I thought it was gut shot, hence the wait. In hindsight I wish I would have approached immediately and finished). He laid, then got up and walked away. I snuck up, jumped him, ran 50 steps, bedded. Same thing again, jumped, ran 50 steps, bedded. This time I was able to see him bed, stalk in and get a clear finished shot. As soon as I walked up, it was clear what had happened. Shot penetrated the chest cavity. It was an open, or simple pneumo. One lung was ineffective and unable to inflate. But since air was also able to escape through the large open wound, there was no "tension" pneumo that caused the lung to collapse and create tension on the heart. There also was no, or very very little, blood loss. And there was no actual tissue injury to the lungs.

 

[Lukem]

I posted about it earlier in the thread........rifle from 75 yards, she ran 1/4 mile before she crumpled, there was no heart inside......just chunks and soup.

Just google "13 yo boy archery elk" and it should come up.

Yeah, sorry I saw that later.

That vid is impressive. Forgot about that one.

 

[Lukem]

I think Mez explained the whole process well in his post.

Its pretty hard to disrupt the CNS with an arrow....but to end up with 2 lung shaped jello molds is fairly easy. <grin>

I guess that led to some of my questions. Running for only a few seconds without being able to breathe and the kitchen sink spigot were things that didn't make sense. Some Olympic swimmers don't breathe for the entire 50 free, the blood has significant O2 in it. I would also assume that the efficiency and rates of flow are similar between humans and other organisms. Most probably circulate full volume in a minute or so.

CNS is one thing, but my question was about the autonomic functions of the body that cause it to shut down due to changes in blood pressure/etc, which in our case are in regards to blood loss.

That's a really interesting story Goober. Always interesting to figure out why they do what they do when we shoot them. Good job following up and figuring that one out.

Given my familiarity with a pneumo, I'm just interested in the whole function here, hence all my questions. It's a complicated reaction the body has.

 

[Goober]

It's difficult to compare an olympic athletes performance in this case. Particularly a swimmer. Their bodies have been trained to utilize anaerobic metabolism for that brief burst of activity, whereas us normal folks (and critters) function on aerobic metabolism. The difference is utilizing oxygen for cellular metabolism versus stored glucose. In order for a body to perform at a high level utilizing anaerobic (sugar) metabolism vs aerobic (oxygen) would require significant training of the body to function at a high level while anaerobic. There is also a factor of those athletes greatly increasing their functional oxygen reserve and aerobic capacity so they are able to utilize more stored O2 prior to needing to switch to burning sugar. Obviously it's much more complicated than that, but that's a good breakdown.

There is a relatively significant amount of reserve oxygen capacity in our blood and lungs (a few minutes, give or take) to maintain life. The sudden loss of consciousness described by many is most likely caused by lack of blood flow, and less likely to be caused by lack of oxygen in the blood. That loss of blood flow can be most rapidly caused by severing of the great vessels coming off of the heart (aorta, pulmonary veins and arteries, vena cavea), pump failure (tension pneumo, massive tissue damage to the heart, or CNS disruption that causes electrical signals to the heart to stop telling it to beat) Hydrostatic shock from high velocity rounds can cause massive tissue damage to the heart muscle without actually penetrating the heart itself, which is the likely cause that rifle shots could cause sudden death, while an arrow through the heart will still allow the heart to pump enough to allow an animal to run some distance.