Quick humane kills.....

[Beendare]

This is a must see for hunters...especially Bowhunters explaining the mechanism of a Pneumothorax and Hemothorax...collapsing the lungs. [start it at 9 or10 minutes to get the gist] I get the feeling many bowhunters think we are trying to kill them through blood loss...the one big hole theory. Well this explains why a complete pass thru in the chest catching both lungs with a sharp BH is so effective...making it so the lungs cannot re-inflate.

A bit Hat tip to Jim at Third Hand Archery for posting this on another site.....it really is a must see for all hunters to understand this mechanism.
[video=youtube;h90KM2fDRMA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h90KM2fDRMA[/video]

 

[Jeff Martin]

Good stuff! Exactly why in my experience, double lung shots have been much more effective archery shots than so called heart shots. I know a lot of great hunters that swear they shot the heart and never found the animal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ironman8]

Well this explains why a complete pass thru in the chest catching both lungs with a sharp BH is so effective...making it so the lungs cannot re-inflate.

You forgot to add that the only broadheads capable of this are ones with concave blade design

 

[Idaho Sandman]

^ I laft!

 

[Jeff Martin]

You forgot to add that the only broadheads capable of this are ones with concave blade design

I spit out my coffee !!!! BAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[Beendare]

You forgot to add that the only broadheads capable of this are ones with concave blade design

inside joke?

 

[Ironman8]

inside joke?

Just poking fun at the other thread....you sure your account wasn't hacked a few hours ago? Maybe some pre-caffinated posting earlier??

 

[Beendare]

Just poking fun at the other thread....you sure your account wasn't hacked a few hours ago? Maybe some pre-caffinated posting earlier??

You got the wrong guy...you are referring to TBM
_____

Back to topic....of course a rifle hunter is more concerned with a shot to the CNS....essentially stopping them in their tracks...but the mechanism in the vid is nice to know as a hunter.

 

[Ironman8]

You got the wrong guy...you are referring to TBM
_____

Back to topic....of course a rifle hunter is more concerned with a shot to the CNS....essentially stopping them in their tracks...but the mechanism in the vid is nice to know as a hunter.

No, I know you're not TBM. What I said and how you took it were two different things. No worries though, not a big deal.

Thanks for posting the vid though. I'm familiar with (tension) pneumo IRT gunshot wounds and stab wounds, but never really thought of that as a possible mechanism for killing an animal. My understanding is that a tension pneumo develops pretty slowly, so I would have thought that blood-loss would account for killing an animal far sooner (as long as major vessels and organs are hit) than a pneumo would.

 

[MattB]

No, I know you're not TBM. What I said and how you took it were two different things. No worries though, not a big deal.

Thanks for posting the vid though. I'm familiar with (tension) pneumo IRT gunshot wounds and stab wounds, but never really thought of that as a possible mechanism for killing an animal. My understanding is that a tension pneumo develops pretty slowly, so I would have thought that blood-loss would account for killing an animal far sooner (as long as major vessels and organs are hit) than a pneumo would.

That is my understanding, although I have seen some rather dramatically quick kills that resulted from the diaphragm being perforated so there may be something to it. I don't know how a hunter can determine whether it was blood loss or bilateral pneumo that actually causes the animal to die (either is ultimately starving the animal of oxygen).

 

[Felix40]

Cool video. Imo you are always going to kill an animal faster by blood loss than suffocation. Even if you collapse the lungs the blood circulating in the body will have oxygen in it for a while. If you cut a major vessel you cut off blood supply to the brain within seconds.

 

[Jeff Martin]

Cool video. Imo you are always going to kill an animal faster by blood loss than suffocation. Even if you collapse the lungs the blood circulating in the body will have oxygen in it for a while. If you cut a major vessel you cut off blood supply to the brain within seconds.

I am certainly not the authority on what causes the death first, I just kill critters. But a similar thread on RS came up about a year ago and a Vet (forgot his handle) explained it is actually suffocation, not blood loss. I think he mentioned blood filling up the lungs is still suffocation and the death is not due to blood loss given the size of animal (i.e.:elk) - If you think about the animals you have double lunged, that makes sense. I have shot deer, they hop 3 or 4 hops, stand their for 3-5 seconds and fall over. I do not think they had time to bleed out with a 5-10 second death.

Anyway..i am not arguing with you just giving you a Vets medical POV and my experience somewhat reaffirms that. I will look for that thread.

PS:
Interesting enough - the deer/elk that have died the fastest by my arrow, all had a "blop" sound and not a thump sound like others. It was like the lungs were gone instantly. I will never forget that sound. When I hear that "blip" sound, I start smiling because I know they are done. Makes you wonder if that is related to this video.

 

[Rabbit Ranger]

This guy has some great videos as well...

[video=youtube_share;L6cLLHsMnL4]https://youtu.be/L6cLLHsMnL4[/video]

 

[MattB]

I am certainly not the authority on what causes the death first, I just kill critters. But a similar thread on RS came up about a year ago and a Vet (forgot his handle) explained it is actually suffocation, not blood loss. I think he mentioned blood filling up the lungs is still suffocation and the death is not due to blood loss given the size of animal (i.e.:elk) - If you think about the animals you have double lunged, that makes sense. I have shot deer, they hop 3 or 4 hops, stand their for 3-5 seconds and fall over. I do not think they had time to bleed out with a 5-10 second death.

Devil's advocate, but do you think that the inability to oxygenate the blood results in an animal being incapacitated in seconds? The quickest death I've witnessed (caused) was a black bear I double lunged which took off at full speed and tumbled never to move again in literally ~2-3 seconds. I cannot imagine that was due to the lungs collapsing but rather blood loss to the brain.

 

[jmez]

Doesn't matter if they bleed out, you collapse the lungs, or they suffocate. The actual cause of death is lack of oxygen to the brain.

There isn't a lot of residual oxygen in the blood. Put a piece of duct tape over your nose and mouth so you can't breathe and then take off running as fast and hard as you can, you won't make it much past a few seconds.

It is really splitting hairs saying they died from blood loss vs collapsed lungs as you have both happening at the same time. The only way to get the heart and no lungs is to get a pass through at the cardiac notches. Rib spaces 3-5 on the left and 3-4 on the right. Even if you do that you still open the chest cavity and the lungs collapse and can't function. You are better off shooting right over the top of the heart. You will put holes in the chest, both lungs and the great vessels as they exit the heart.

For an animal to actually bleed to death quickly you need to hit the heart or one of the great vessels, coming into or going out of the heart. Even then it take more than seconds for them to bleed to death. A mature bull elk will have between 7-9 gallons of blood, about 10% of their body weight. They need to lose 50-60% of that to cause death. It takes more than a couple of seconds to lose that type of volume. Put a 5 gallon bucket in your sink, turn it on full blast and see how long it takes to fill the bucket. Way more than a few seconds.

Pneumothorax doesn't take long to develop. It is immediate if you open a hole into the chest. You open both sides they can't breathe. At the same time you are cutting vessels so they are bleeding while they can't breathe.

Actual suffocation would be rare. For them to physically suffocate the blood has to get out of the vascular space and into the airways and plug them. Would be pretty rare fill enough of the airways with blood to suffocate the animal.

 

[Jeff Martin]

Good stuff guys! So we are saying lack of oxygen to the brain disables the animal while dying of suffocation and blood loss.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[5MilesBack]

I cannot imagine that was due to the lungs collapsing but rather blood loss to the brain.

I shot a cow elk about 30 years ago with a rifle from about 75 yards. She stood there for about 2 seconds after I shot and then took off out of sight. I thought I missed......I expected her to drop, or at least show signs of a hit. When I got up to where she stood in the 10" of snow, all I could find was some hair on the ground. But I followed her tracks and about 100 yards into the trailing I found the first spec of blood. I kept following a sparse blood trail until I found a pool. Then 1/4 mile into the tracking, there she was slumped over a blowdown.

It was almost dark and cold, so I quickly just split her open and gutted. Her entire chest cavity was soup........there was no heart, just bits and pieces. I really doubt that she was getting any O2 to her brain as soon as that pump quick working, yet she ran 1/4 mile.

This year I arrowed my bull with a double lung shot and he went down in 37 yards and under 3 seconds......dead as a door nail. All double lung arrow hits with two holes put them down very quickly.

I also shoot a LOT of squirrels with a pellet rifle. I used to always aim pretty much for the heart. And they'd run and run and disappear. I'd almost always find them later, but quite a ways from where I shot them. When I started aiming a little higher and further back, I watch them go down within a second or two of shooting them.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

Heart shot deer normally run wide open and die on their feet still running wide open. Lung shot normall run a short distance, stop then fall over. Double lung shot are hard to beat but blood trails are usually better with heart shots. You should never ever loose either

 

[realunlucky]

Heart shot two deer this year one went maybe 10 yards the other fifteen.

arrow and deer in same picture.

I've shot six or seven in the heart over the years and never had one go more than 20 yards. Out of a tree stand and close I'll always aim for the heart to account for any drop at arrow release. Double lung have been the standard with two holes

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[Beendare]

Doesn't matter if they bleed out, you collapse the lungs, or they suffocate. The actual cause of death is lack of oxygen to the brain.

There isn't a lot of residual oxygen in the blood. Put a piece of duct tape over your nose and mouth so you can't breathe and then take off running as fast and hard as you can, you won't make it much past a few seconds.

It is really splitting hairs saying they died from blood loss vs collapsed lungs as you have both happening at the same time. The only way to get the heart and no lungs is to get a pass through at the cardiac notches. Rib spaces 3-5 on the left and 3-4 on the right. Even if you do that you still open the chest cavity and the lungs collapse and can't function. You are better off shooting right over the top of the heart. You will put holes in the chest, both lungs and the great vessels as they exit the heart.

For an animal to actually bleed to death quickly you need to hit the heart or one of the great vessels, coming into or going out of the heart. Even then it take more than seconds for them to bleed to death. A mature bull elk will have between 7-9 gallons of blood, about 10% of their body weight. They need to lose 50-60% of that to cause death. It takes more than a couple of seconds to lose that type of volume. Put a 5 gallon bucket in your sink, turn it on full blast and see how long it takes to fill the bucket. Way more than a few seconds.

Pneumothorax doesn't take long to develop. It is immediate if you open a hole into the chest. You open both sides they can't breathe. At the same time you are cutting vessels so they are bleeding while they can't breathe.

Actual suffocation would be rare. For them to physically suffocate the blood has to get out of the vascular space and into the airways and plug them. Would be pretty rare fill enough of the airways with blood to suffocate the animal.

Informative post Mez.....appreciate you lending your expertise.

I wasn't trying to start a debate...it was more along the lines of 'knowledge is power'. There are many ways this knowledge can help a guy even in after the shot scenarios.

FWIW, I typically aim 1/3rd up on all animals right behind the shoulder....