Questions about the irrelevance of energy (ft-lbs)

Do you think a 77TMK at 2000 fps makes a larger or smaller wound channel than a 150 .308 FMJ at 2000 fps?

Do you think a 6mm 108 ELDM and a .30 225 ELDM are more similar at at equal energy or equal velocity (as in, gel blocks side by side with both bullets impacting with 2000 FPS, vs both bullets impacting with 1000 ft-lb)?



A few questions for you...
1) How many big game animals have you killed using the heavy for caliber tipped .223 and 6mm match bullets that we cult members are using?

2) What are the characteristics of the wound channel with those bullets that you feel is lacking? Width? Depth?
I feel the 150 gr. FMJ would make a longer wound channel. As they are known to tumble It's hard to say exactly how wide the wound channel would be. Why not ask the question using more similar bullets.

The larger bullet would displace more when impacting at 2000 fps. It would penetrate deeper at the same energy as it would have more mass and would be going slower.

I have shot several deer using .224 diameter bullets. Placed perfectly and where deep penetration is not required they do a good enough job.
 
Not quite sure what you mean by that.


In and of itself, no I don't believe it contributes to quick kills. Functionally, it is the permanent crush cavity that is the driving factor for quick kills. The way I understand it, the temporary stretch cavity is damaging little to no tissue, and I don't believe in the theories of it "shocking" vital organs or blood vessels. In most cases it's just the stretching of tissue, which as I previously said, is elastic. Now add jacket shrapnel into the equation, and you can damage exponentially more area of tissue. Which is also why I said depending on bullet construction.


Because they don't tell you anything about what kind of wound will be produced, or how quickly the animal will die. Run the numbers on a 200gr 30 cal monolithic, and compare it to a 77gr 223 bullet. Now shoot animals and observe the wound channels, and report back. The 200gr mono will punch a hole through the vitals the size of the frontal diameter, the 77gr will look like a grenade went off inside the cavity. That's the crux of this entire thread. No one is arguing energy as a function of physics doesn't matter, it obviously does. I'm saying calculatable kinetic energy doesn't matter as a function of predicting wounding capabilities, because it's determined by bullet construction.
The temporary wound channel is what makes gel blocks bounce off tables and often breaks boards and tables they are sitting on. So there is some effect. Akin to a punch to other organs such as the heart. Most bullets have some fragmenting going on.

I can't imagine using a 200 gr. Mono for the same game I would use a 77 gr. TM. How about this, compare a 77 gr. Mono to a 200 gr. mono. Or a 200 gr. TM tp a 77 gr. TM? Mass counts.
 
The temporary wound channel is what makes gel blocks bounce off tables and often breaks boards and tables they are sitting on. So there is some effect. Akin to a punch to other organs such as the heart. Most bullets have some fragmenting going on.

I can't imagine using a 200 gr. Mono for the same game I would use a 77 gr. TM. How about this, compare a 77 gr. Mono to a 200 gr. mono. Or a 200 gr. TM tp a 77 gr. TM? Mass counts.
Mass does not predict the wound channel nor does energy. Bullet construction does. You have even said this yourself.

Btw I have used a 200g and 500g mono on a deer. Have to use 35 cal or larger by law. It kills them, but nothing impressive. That is exactly why I embrace the energy is irrelevant I also would not use a 22 or 6mm mono on deer.
 
I have nothing to add to Harvey or bluefish. Wound channels aren’t predictable by energy.
Bullsh1t

Who’s got a pic of a ham shot Bambi with a 108 eldm from a 6cm? Then look at the ham shot Bambi Form did with the hyper 300 wm. Maybe 100 ft/lbs per inch over 18” vs 240 ft/lbs per inch over 14”. You’ll still see the ham from the 108 but Form showed you the entire thing exploded to nothing but a few burger scraps. I shot a moose in femur with a 123 gr eldm pretty slow and it took out 4-6” of it but not that much damage around it and certainly nothing exposed from under the hide. First shot was good though and went ~20” quartering towards taking part lung, all of liver and off into the paunch. The femur stopped it essentially as the other ham was fine. Also got one under the antler that left it hanging with a chunk of skull cap but all still under hide and bullet never left the brain pan. Forms 240 ft/lb inch combo would not have left anything left on top of head and both hams would have been a mess and on the first shot it might have drt’d it not giving a guy a chance to shoot a couple more times lol.

So yup you can kill with moderate energy per inch and still wrap some meat and kill quick but you can also do what Form likes for culling and vaporize a lot more material. The 108 in a deer game example you would not see exposed meat. Go back and look at Forms pic again...

Not hard to visualize and predict wound by energy at all. Gotta know construction and impact velocity though.
 
Goal: Make as objective as In-Flight Ballistics for Hunting.

Confirmed:
Bullet carries energy and does ‘work’.
Confirmed:
We don’t know how to measure the work after impact but we do know how to measure it before impact.

Work is applied to Bullet by way of pressure (controlled explosion), the work is used to overcome barrel drag and then air drag to get to the target. Once at the target the remaining work potential is then applied…

In-Flight Ballistics: (start at the start)
What the Constants and Variables are and how did we solve them?
Constants:
• Bullet (BC)
• Gravity (vertical, easily measured and applied)
Variables:
• Air (Temp, Pressure, Humidity, Velocity)

To get the Bullet constant solved for or created, which is ballistic coefficient (BC), we had to first learn how to measure the Air and there’s not just a multitude of sensors we created to measure the Air but multiple types to measure each variable. Some Sensor Examples; Thermistors, Thermocouples, RTD’s, Resistive, Thermal Conductivity, Piezoresistive, Aneroid Barometers (thanks AI). Once we measured the Air then we also learned how to measure the bullet speed through the Air by way of time of flight, chronographs, radar and whatever technologies and sensors present within those tools which are also numerousand technical marvels, from taking snap shot of speed at static location of the bullet or measure entire bullet flight.

With Air variables solved for, combined with velocity, we could come up with the BC as the constant for the Bullet. Which then allows us to measure Air and input conditions, along with BC,into handheld computers to accurately place shots as far as bullet will fly before gravity pulls it into the dirt. Now we carry devices that will measure the air variables and calculate solutions in one unit at the push of a button. We’ve come a long way in In-Flight ballistics and seemingly as far as we need to go as we can place bullets as far as they will fly but we didn’t get here overnight. We will continue to improve the accuracy of the instruments and calculators to improve our accuracy down range. This has been evolving and improving for decades.

Difference between Inflight & Terminal Ballistics: (Constants & Variables)
Constants:
• Gel (to represent flesh)
Variables:
• Bullet (Sectional Density ‘SD’)

The Constants and Variables flip in Terminal Ballistics. Now theremaining work ‘potential’ is applied completely through a far more dense constant than Air and over a very short distance.Dense enough that the Bullet changes in shape, and or, mass Thesectional density changes rapidly (exception being solids/fmj’s).The constant(gel) shows a visual representation of the applied work but is only a representation that we’ve always tried to measure by way of linear length measurements, not work measurements.

What needs to happen now is to learn how to measure the velocity in gel along with change in shape/mass (SD), for the full travel in the gel. This will give us a work curve at a single impact velocity. And then we need to do it at all usable impact velocity ranges. We may have to determine how frequently those intervals need to be to get usable data, such as every 1000 fps, or 500 fps, or 200 fps etc.? It’s only from this point can we then possibly get usable data that could end up translating into a single number that could represent ‘rate of change’ or ‘work transfer rate’ such as BC is for In-Flight. Data tells the story,more data tells the story more accurately. It would evolve to see how much data we need to be useful, maybe every 500 fps intervals for curves is enough, in time as we advance the accuracy and development we may end up every 100 fps? Too early to tell as we aren’t looking at anything but gel pictures at near useless muzzle velocities. We are going to need some new tools to do this (sensors etc.).

I can see what’s missing, but it will take a team to build the tools(sensors) and another team to apply them to obtain the data,then a data team to crunch the data and make it useful (ie; BC),and then the final team that makes the calculators for end users (all Hunters).

Everything else we talk about in these threads is pointless aside from it pointing out what we’re missing IF the goal is to make this objective and as good as In-Flight for predicting performance down range. Placement, measuring result of workat random impact velocities, calling each other dumb, and every other unrelated thing that comes into these discussions. We’re not dumb, we’re just missing information to make this easier for everyone to understand and compare. We’ve been looking at theresult of work instead of the work itself. We got the cart ahead of the horse. The bullet does the work, need to measure the bullet as it does the work.

Arguing how much theoretical, and or, imaginary ‘result of work’ is being done between bullets, based on subjective experiences and crude measurements. That has not, and will not,help us to stop doing that. Choose your rapid controlled expansion horse with enough sd already proven to kill by others and away you go…that’s as far as you can take it. Or choose your delayed controlled expansion horse with whatever sdproven to work for game classes and eat to the hole…easy. We waste our time doing anything else at this point.

You can’t make people understand, you can help, and some of us give more than others in effort but at some point…omfg sets in and you have to just go get a drink. We’ve hit that point about 8 times in this 27 pages so far lol.
 
Bullsh1t

Who’s got a pic of a ham shot Bambi with a 108 eldm from a 6cm? Then look at the ham shot Bambi Form did with the hyper 300 wm. Maybe 100 ft/lbs per inch over 18” vs 240 ft/lbs per inch over 14”. You’ll still see the ham from the 108 but Form showed you the entire thing exploded to nothing but a few burger scraps. I shot a moose in femur with a 123 gr eldm pretty slow and it took out 4-6” of it but not that much damage around it and certainly nothing exposed from under the hide. First shot was good though and went ~20” quartering towards taking part lung, all of liver and off into the paunch. The femur stopped it essentially as the other ham was fine. Also got one under the antler that left it hanging with a chunk of skull cap but all still under hide and bullet never left the brain pan. Forms 240 ft/lb inch combo would not have left anything left on top of head and both hams would have been a mess and on the first shot it might have drt’d it not giving a guy a chance to shoot a couple more times lol.

So yup you can kill with moderate energy per inch and still wrap some meat and kill quick but you can also do what Form likes for culling and vaporize a lot more material. The 108 in a deer game example you would not see exposed meat. Go back and look at Forms pic again...

Not hard to visualize and predict wound by energy at all. Gotta know construction and impact velocity though.


It’s not “energy” that created those wounds from the 30cal- it was impact velocity and bullet construction. That bullet was a 178gr varmint bullet- make a similar 100+ gr 6mm and you absolutely will get similar wounds. Maybe not exactly as wide or exactly as long, but just looking at them you wouldn’t see much difference.
 
Goal: Make as objective as In-Flight Ballistics for Hunting.

Confirmed:
Bullet carries energy and does ‘work’.
Confirmed:
We don’t know how to measure the work after impact but we do know how to measure it before impact.

Work is applied to Bullet by way of pressure (controlled explosion), the work is used to overcome barrel drag and then air drag to get to the target. Once at the target the remaining work potential is then applied…

In-Flight Ballistics: (start at the start)
What the Constants and Variables are and how did we solve them?
Constants:
• Bullet (BC)
• Gravity (vertical, easily measured and applied)
Variables:
• Air (Temp, Pressure, Humidity, Velocity)

To get the Bullet constant solved for or created, which is ballistic coefficient (BC), we had to first learn how to measure the Air and there’s not just a multitude of sensors we created to measure the Air but multiple types to measure each variable. Some Sensor Examples; Thermistors, Thermocouples, RTD’s, Resistive, Thermal Conductivity, Piezoresistive, Aneroid Barometers (thanks AI). Once we measured the Air then we also learned how to measure the bullet speed through the Air by way of time of flight, chronographs, radar and whatever technologies and sensors present within those tools which are also numerousand technical marvels, from taking snap shot of speed at static location of the bullet or measure entire bullet flight.

With Air variables solved for, combined with velocity, we could come up with the BC as the constant for the Bullet. Which then allows us to measure Air and input conditions, along with BC,into handheld computers to accurately place shots as far as bullet will fly before gravity pulls it into the dirt. Now we carry devices that will measure the air variables and calculate solutions in one unit at the push of a button. We’ve come a long way in In-Flight ballistics and seemingly as far as we need to go as we can place bullets as far as they will fly but we didn’t get here overnight. We will continue to improve the accuracy of the instruments and calculators to improve our accuracy down range. This has been evolving and improving for decades.

Difference between Inflight & Terminal Ballistics: (Constants & Variables)
Constants:
• Gel (to represent flesh)
Variables:
• Bullet (Sectional Density ‘SD’)

The Constants and Variables flip in Terminal Ballistics. Now theremaining work ‘potential’ is applied completely through a far more dense constant than Air and over a very short distance.Dense enough that the Bullet changes in shape, and or, mass Thesectional density changes rapidly (exception being solids/fmj’s).The constant(gel) shows a visual representation of the applied work but is only a representation that we’ve always tried to measure by way of linear length measurements, not work measurements.

What needs to happen now is to learn how to measure the velocity in gel along with change in shape/mass (SD), for the full travel in the gel. This will give us a work curve at a single impact velocity. And then we need to do it at all usable impact velocity ranges. We may have to determine how frequently those intervals need to be to get usable data, such as every 1000 fps, or 500 fps, or 200 fps etc.? It’s only from this point can we then possibly get usable data that could end up translating into a single number that could represent ‘rate of change’ or ‘work transfer rate’ such as BC is for In-Flight. Data tells the story,more data tells the story more accurately. It would evolve to see how much data we need to be useful, maybe every 500 fps intervals for curves is enough, in time as we advance the accuracy and development we may end up every 100 fps? Too early to tell as we aren’t looking at anything but gel pictures at near useless muzzle velocities. We are going to need some new tools to do this (sensors etc.).

I can see what’s missing, but it will take a team to build the tools(sensors) and another team to apply them to obtain the data,then a data team to crunch the data and make it useful (ie; BC),and then the final team that makes the calculators for end users (all Hunters).

Everything else we talk about in these threads is pointless aside from it pointing out what we’re missing IF the goal is to make this objective and as good as In-Flight for predicting performance down range. Placement, measuring result of workat random impact velocities, calling each other dumb, and every other unrelated thing that comes into these discussions. We’re not dumb, we’re just missing information to make this easier for everyone to understand and compare. We’ve been looking at theresult of work instead of the work itself. We got the cart ahead of the horse. The bullet does the work, need to measure the bullet as it does the work.

Arguing how much theoretical, and or, imaginary ‘result of work’ is being done between bullets, based on subjective experiences and crude measurements. That has not, and will not,help us to stop doing that. Choose your rapid controlled expansion horse with enough sd already proven to kill by others and away you go…that’s as far as you can take it. Or choose your delayed controlled expansion horse with whatever sdproven to work for game classes and eat to the hole…easy. We waste our time doing anything else at this point.

You can’t make people understand, you can help, and some of us give more than others in effort but at some point…omfg sets in and you have to just go get a drink. We’ve hit that point about 8 times in this 27 pages so far lol.
Are you still typing books no one reads?
 
It’s not “energy” that created those wounds from the 30cal- it was impact velocity and bullet construction. That bullet was a 178gr varmint bullet- make a similar 100+ gr 6mm and you absolutely will get similar wounds. Maybe not exactly as wide or exactly as long, but just looking at them you wouldn’t see much difference.
1. It is energy and 2. It is different.

And whatever that difference is we argue about endlessly. Regardless of how little one thinks that may be. And since it is subjective I disagree that those two examples would only show a small difference. 2.4x the work over similar distance looks obvious, the 108 even expose meat? So let’s go shoot another one in the arse to see lol. Haven’t we already enough of that proof?

Look forward to your solutions for making this topic objective.
 
1. It is energy and 2. It is different.

And whatever that difference is we argue about endlessly. Regardless of how little one thinks that may be. And since it is subjective I disagree that those two examples would only show a small difference. 2.4x the work over similar distance looks obvious, the 108 even expose meat? So let’s go shoot another one in the arse to see lol. Haven’t we already enough of that proof?

Look forward to your solutions for making this topic objective.


Why are you talking about “subjective”? There are hundreds of pictures I have posted from .224 to 30cals. I’m not guessing what a 6mm looks like on a deer femur. There is also a 30cal bullet with less energy that creates even larger wounds than that 178gr bullet.

As per usual you are arguing things you don’t have experience or knowledge with.
 
Teamwork makes the dream work. Helping the team. For those wanting to progress.

How bout you? Anything new to add to make this objective?

Those that can, and like to, think...will read it all and make their own conclusions. It’s not for everyone lol.
Correct, those that can think, will. But let’s continue your word salad. You think it matters. But you can’t measure consistently, nor linear. By your reasoning, you should be able to show what 2000 ft lbs of energy would look like in a wound channel, regardless of bullet construction, caliber size, or velocity. You could actually show differences in 1500ft lbs of energy, and 3500ft lbs, with bullets that are of the same construction. And not just minor differences. But that’s now how bullets work. It’s been said numerous times, you could take multiple wounds made by numerous types of bullets and at best you’ll be able to differentiate between construction of the bullets. No one, including you, has had the ability to show the difference.
 
Goal: Make as objective as In-Flight Ballistics for Hunting.

Confirmed:
Bullet carries energy and does ‘work’.
Confirmed:
We don’t know how to measure the work after impact but we do know how to measure it before impact.

Work is applied to Bullet by way of pressure (controlled explosion), the work is used to overcome barrel drag and then air drag to get to the target. Once at the target the remaining work potential is then applied…

In-Flight Ballistics: (start at the start)
What the Constants and Variables are and how did we solve them?
Constants:
• Bullet (BC)
• Gravity (vertical, easily measured and applied)
Variables:
• Air (Temp, Pressure, Humidity, Velocity)

To get the Bullet constant solved for or created, which is ballistic coefficient (BC), we had to first learn how to measure the Air and there’s not just a multitude of sensors we created to measure the Air but multiple types to measure each variable. Some Sensor Examples; Thermistors, Thermocouples, RTD’s, Resistive, Thermal Conductivity, Piezoresistive, Aneroid Barometers (thanks AI). Once we measured the Air then we also learned how to measure the bullet speed through the Air by way of time of flight, chronographs, radar and whatever technologies and sensors present within those tools which are also numerousand technical marvels, from taking snap shot of speed at static location of the bullet or measure entire bullet flight.

With Air variables solved for, combined with velocity, we could come up with the BC as the constant for the Bullet. Which then allows us to measure Air and input conditions, along with BC,into handheld computers to accurately place shots as far as bullet will fly before gravity pulls it into the dirt. Now we carry devices that will measure the air variables and calculate solutions in one unit at the push of a button. We’ve come a long way in In-Flight ballistics and seemingly as far as we need to go as we can place bullets as far as they will fly but we didn’t get here overnight. We will continue to improve the accuracy of the instruments and calculators to improve our accuracy down range. This has been evolving and improving for decades.

Difference between Inflight & Terminal Ballistics: (Constants & Variables)
Constants:
• Gel (to represent flesh)
Variables:
• Bullet (Sectional Density ‘SD’)

The Constants and Variables flip in Terminal Ballistics. Now theremaining work ‘potential’ is applied completely through a far more dense constant than Air and over a very short distance.Dense enough that the Bullet changes in shape, and or, mass Thesectional density changes rapidly (exception being solids/fmj’s).The constant(gel) shows a visual representation of the applied work but is only a representation that we’ve always tried to measure by way of linear length measurements, not work measurements.

What needs to happen now is to learn how to measure the velocity in gel along with change in shape/mass (SD), for the full travel in the gel. This will give us a work curve at a single impact velocity. And then we need to do it at all usable impact velocity ranges. We may have to determine how frequently those intervals need to be to get usable data, such as every 1000 fps, or 500 fps, or 200 fps etc.? It’s only from this point can we then possibly get usable data that could end up translating into a single number that could represent ‘rate of change’ or ‘work transfer rate’ such as BC is for In-Flight. Data tells the story,more data tells the story more accurately. It would evolve to see how much data we need to be useful, maybe every 500 fps intervals for curves is enough, in time as we advance the accuracy and development we may end up every 100 fps? Too early to tell as we aren’t looking at anything but gel pictures at near useless muzzle velocities. We are going to need some new tools to do this (sensors etc.).

I can see what’s missing, but it will take a team to build the tools(sensors) and another team to apply them to obtain the data,then a data team to crunch the data and make it useful (ie; BC),and then the final team that makes the calculators for end users (all Hunters).

Everything else we talk about in these threads is pointless aside from it pointing out what we’re missing IF the goal is to make this objective and as good as In-Flight for predicting performance down range. Placement, measuring result of workat random impact velocities, calling each other dumb, and every other unrelated thing that comes into these discussions. We’re not dumb, we’re just missing information to make this easier for everyone to understand and compare. We’ve been looking at theresult of work instead of the work itself. We got the cart ahead of the horse. The bullet does the work, need to measure the bullet as it does the work.

Arguing how much theoretical, and or, imaginary ‘result of work’ is being done between bullets, based on subjective experiences and crude measurements. That has not, and will not,help us to stop doing that. Choose your rapid controlled expansion horse with enough sd already proven to kill by others and away you go…that’s as far as you can take it. Or choose your delayed controlled expansion horse with whatever sdproven to work for game classes and eat to the hole…easy. We waste our time doing anything else at this point.

You can’t make people understand, you can help, and some of us give more than others in effort but at some point…omfg sets in and you have to just go get a drink. We’ve hit that point about 8 times in this 27 pages so far lol.
Nah
 
The temporary wound channel is what makes gel blocks bounce off tables and often breaks boards and tables they are sitting on. So there is some effect. Akin to a punch to other organs such as the heart. Most bullets have some fragmenting going on.

I can't imagine using a 200 gr. Mono for the same game I would use a 77 gr. TM. How about this, compare a 77 gr. Mono to a 200 gr. mono. Or a 200 gr. TM tp a 77 gr. TM? Mass counts.
How about you actually answer a question or produce some facts
 
Your argument that expanding bullets destroy tissue is obvious. It is also obvious that that a larger bullet at the same velocity of the same construction will create a larger path of destruction. Or even that a similar bullet at higher velocity will create a larger path of destruction, though it may not penetrate as deeply. In both cases the calculated KE is an indicator of such.

How does KE play into the gel results below, especially through barriers like heavy clothing or plywood?

Also how do you calculate the terminal results on an animal using KE between a 168 gr AMAX and a 168 gr BTHP?


Screen Shot 2025-03-31 at 4.13.10 PM.png
Screen Shot 2025-03-31 at 4.14.10 PM.png
Screen Shot 2025-03-31 at 4.14.31 PM.png
Screen Shot 2025-03-31 at 4.15.00 PM.png

Screen Shot 2025-03-31 at 4.15.53 PM.png
 
Goal: Make as objective as In-Flight Ballistics for Hunting.

Confirmed:
Bullet carries energy and does ‘work’.
Confirmed:
We don’t know how to measure the work after impact but we do know how to measure it before impact.

Work is applied to Bullet by way of pressure (controlled explosion), the work is used to overcome barrel drag and then air drag to get to the target. Once at the target the remaining work potential is then applied…

In-Flight Ballistics: (start at the start)
What the Constants and Variables are and how did we solve them?
Constants:
• Bullet (BC)
• Gravity (vertical, easily measured and applied)
Variables:
• Air (Temp, Pressure, Humidity, Velocity)

To get the Bullet constant solved for or created, which is ballistic coefficient (BC), we had to first learn how to measure the Air and there’s not just a multitude of sensors we created to measure the Air but multiple types to measure each variable. Some Sensor Examples; Thermistors, Thermocouples, RTD’s, Resistive, Thermal Conductivity, Piezoresistive, Aneroid Barometers (thanks AI). Once we measured the Air then we also learned how to measure the bullet speed through the Air by way of time of flight, chronographs, radar and whatever technologies and sensors present within those tools which are also numerousand technical marvels, from taking snap shot of speed at static location of the bullet or measure entire bullet flight.

With Air variables solved for, combined with velocity, we could come up with the BC as the constant for the Bullet. Which then allows us to measure Air and input conditions, along with BC,into handheld computers to accurately place shots as far as bullet will fly before gravity pulls it into the dirt. Now we carry devices that will measure the air variables and calculate solutions in one unit at the push of a button. We’ve come a long way in In-Flight ballistics and seemingly as far as we need to go as we can place bullets as far as they will fly but we didn’t get here overnight. We will continue to improve the accuracy of the instruments and calculators to improve our accuracy down range. This has been evolving and improving for decades.

Difference between Inflight & Terminal Ballistics: (Constants & Variables)
Constants:
• Gel (to represent flesh)
Variables:
• Bullet (Sectional Density ‘SD’)

The Constants and Variables flip in Terminal Ballistics. Now theremaining work ‘potential’ is applied completely through a far more dense constant than Air and over a very short distance.Dense enough that the Bullet changes in shape, and or, mass Thesectional density changes rapidly (exception being solids/fmj’s).The constant(gel) shows a visual representation of the applied work but is only a representation that we’ve always tried to measure by way of linear length measurements, not work measurements.

What needs to happen now is to learn how to measure the velocity in gel along with change in shape/mass (SD), for the full travel in the gel. This will give us a work curve at a single impact velocity. And then we need to do it at all usable impact velocity ranges. We may have to determine how frequently those intervals need to be to get usable data, such as every 1000 fps, or 500 fps, or 200 fps etc.? It’s only from this point can we then possibly get usable data that could end up translating into a single number that could represent ‘rate of change’ or ‘work transfer rate’ such as BC is for In-Flight. Data tells the story,more data tells the story more accurately. It would evolve to see how much data we need to be useful, maybe every 500 fps intervals for curves is enough, in time as we advance the accuracy and development we may end up every 100 fps? Too early to tell as we aren’t looking at anything but gel pictures at near useless muzzle velocities. We are going to need some new tools to do this (sensors etc.).

I can see what’s missing, but it will take a team to build the tools(sensors) and another team to apply them to obtain the data,then a data team to crunch the data and make it useful (ie; BC),and then the final team that makes the calculators for end users (all Hunters).

Everything else we talk about in these threads is pointless aside from it pointing out what we’re missing IF the goal is to make this objective and as good as In-Flight for predicting performance down range. Placement, measuring result of workat random impact velocities, calling each other dumb, and every other unrelated thing that comes into these discussions. We’re not dumb, we’re just missing information to make this easier for everyone to understand and compare. We’ve been looking at theresult of work instead of the work itself. We got the cart ahead of the horse. The bullet does the work, need to measure the bullet as it does the work.

Arguing how much theoretical, and or, imaginary ‘result of work’ is being done between bullets, based on subjective experiences and crude measurements. That has not, and will not,help us to stop doing that. Choose your rapid controlled expansion horse with enough sd already proven to kill by others and away you go…that’s as far as you can take it. Or choose your delayed controlled expansion horse with whatever sdproven to work for game classes and eat to the hole…easy. We waste our time doing anything else at this point.

You can’t make people understand, you can help, and some of us give more than others in effort but at some point…omfg sets in and you have to just go get a drink. We’ve hit that point about 8 times in this 27 pages so far lol.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, spend some time studying physics. Even HS level stuff. Learn the terminology and how to correctly apply it. Then we may be willing to have a conversation with you.

Here is something that may help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics)

Please read it and you will start to grasp why what you are trying to figure out will only apply when the medium is constant (which animals are not) and the bullet is constant (which they are not, once they impact). So, unless you plan to only shoot gel with FMJs that don't ever tumble, you will not be able to accurately predict (within a statistically significant window) your theoretical energy/in measurement.
 
Why are you talking about “subjective”? There are hundreds of pictures I have posted from .224 to 30cals. I’m not guessing what a 6mm looks like on a deer femur. There is also a 30cal bullet with less energy that creates even larger wounds than that 178gr bullet.

As per usual you are arguing things you don’t have experience or knowledge with.
I can see why you keep saying ‘what are you talking about?’

We apply energy to the bullet to get it there, it gets there with a bunch of that energy and then it’s all unicorn farts from there? Lmfao

I don’t think you’re comprehending what I’m saying or what our goals are.

Keep taking pictures of wounds, it will surely sort these threads out and help all hunters across the globe if you post a few hundred more.

And I have plenty of experience and my own photos but that’s steering back to studying result of work and deflecting by trying to attack a messenger rather than the message which is study the work itself and putting it to numbers. Work numbers. Because it does not matter how many hundreds of photos you or anyone else posts. That’s like taking picture of the wind and using that to tell you it’s 15 mph lol.

Try again
 
Please, for the love of all that is holy, spend some time studying physics. Even HS level stuff. Learn the terminology and how to correctly apply it. Then we may be willing to have a conversation with you.

Here is something that may help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics)

Please read it and you will start to grasp why what you are trying to figure out will only apply when the medium is constant (which animals are not) and the bullet is constant (which they are not, once they impact). So, unless you plan to only shoot gel with FMJs that don't ever tumble, you will not be able to accurately predict (within a statistically significant window) your theoretical energy/in measurement.
How would we know? You sound sort of certain lol. And why wouldn’t we measure every bullet we could get our hands on? So it shows the varmint guys what they know already but in objective work info and then Africa guys what they know in objective work info. And then show everyone what else would or wouldn’t work and what has more insurance they want or every other desire and all ranges of impact velocities.

We have not taken this far enough because we’ve been looking at the cart, trying to figure out if a horse can even pull it let alone start looking for the horse.

We’re so far behind we think we’re first.
 
I can see why you keep saying ‘what are you talking about?’

We apply energy to the bullet to get it there, it gets there with a bunch of that energy and then it’s all unicorn farts from there? Lmfao

I don’t think you’re comprehending what I’m saying or what our goals are.

Keep taking pictures of wounds, it will surely sort these threads out and help all hunters across the globe if you post a few hundred more.

And I have plenty of experience and my own photos but that’s steering back to studying result of work and deflecting by trying to attack a messenger rather than the message which is study the work itself and putting it to numbers. Work numbers. Because it does not matter how many hundreds of photos you or anyone else posts. That’s like taking picture of the wind and using that to tell you it’s 15 mph lol.

Try again
Do you have the evidence, or not? Simple as that. You’ve been given multiple examples by those that know that energy numbers are just feel good numbers.
 
How does KE play into the gel results below, especially through barriers like heavy clothing or plywood?

Also how do you calculate the terminal results on an animal using KE between a 168 gr AMAX and a 168 gr BTHP?


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We have to build new to tools to measure velocity and mass in gel before we can calculate the energy at a given point or a full curve and then do it at enough impact velocity ranges to cover what we want to see. We’re in diapers currently though so have to keep going page after page wondering what the fack is going on lol.
 
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