Questions about the irrelevance of energy (ft-lbs)

[Stinky Coyote]

 

[Stinky Coyote]

This sh1t needs some podcasting.

 

[bmart2622]

Do tell, why aren’t guys here using 55gr varmint construction bullets in their 6mm’s for big game here????? And any numbers to go with so all can understand? You know the temporary stretch and permanent wound cavity of that? Even know the impact velocity? Total penetration? Lmfao...

You drinking your beers in front of mirror? again?

Youre wrong because I don't drink

 

[Harvey_NW]

The fact of the matter is the effort was, and continues to be, put in the wrong place. Study the work, not the result of work.

What’s the problem?

It's the result that matters..

 

[Stinky Coyote]

It's the result that matters..

We already know that part. What’s the number on result? Death?

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Youre wrong because I don't drink

Bro...

Now you have no excuse. Wtf, gimmie something. Gummies? Smoke version? You keep cutting off your one already short leg.

 

[wmr89]

All other things being equal, is there or is there not an advantage of a 1500 ft-lb "dump of energy" versus a 1200 ft-lb "dump of energy"?

I can't say I have read every word of this thread but all the pro energy guys seem to make their arguments in terms of weight and velocity not KE. I have even seen several argue that the energy only matters when you know the mass and velocity. And that's kind of the point isn't it? I understand the mathmatical relationship but KE is useless on its own and useless as some magical benchmark that kills animals.

It is like multiplying a woman's bust size by her IQ and pretending it gives you an idea of how attractive she is. Sure, it's an interesting number but it doesn't really tell you anything useful. Besides, how she is constructed is much more important anyways . . .

 

[bmart2622]

Bro...

Now you have no excuse. Wtf, gimmie something. Gummies? Smoke version? You keep cutting off your one already short leg.

There it is again, nothing intelligent or constructive to say so you revert to baseless accusations and insults....troll/keyboard warrior 101

 

[WhatToHunt]

I can't say I have read every word of this thread but all the pro energy guys seem to make their arguments in terms of weight and velocity not KE. I have even seen several argue that the energy only matters when you know the mass and velocity. And that's kind of the point isn't it? I understand the mathmatical relationship but KE is useless on its own and useless as some magical benchmark that kills animals.

It is like multiplying a woman's bust size by her IQ and pretending it gives you an idea of how attractive she is. Sure, it's an interesting number but it doesn't really tell you anything useful. Besides, how she is constructed is much more important anyways . . .

I find the Hot Crazy Matrix to be the most accurate data-driven method:

 

[HandgunHTR]

Is momentum a unit of measure for work?

Do we use that language or unit currently?

Momentum is irrelevant lol.

Keep eye on prize, what is the problem?, what is the goal to make objective for all hunters across the globe?

Many of us don’t see either.

32 pages and counting.

Momentum is used to quantify "mass in motion" (to dumb it down), so no, it isn't a measure for work, but it helps to understand how much penetration potential is there. Momentum is also a vector quantity, unlike KE, so it is much more suitable unit of measure when speaking about potential penetration.

Do we use that unit currently? No, and that is a huge part of the problem. It is starting to gain traction in the archery world, but even there, people are too married to KE and refuse to educate themselves.

You say that momentum is irrelevant and then want to measure SD and velocity over a distance. SD is nothing more than weight/diameter(squared). Momentum is mass*velocity. So, if you understand the rate of change of momentum in a medium, you understand how much potential is there for penetration. Diameter of the bullet (or sharpness of the broadhead) are significant variables that impact the rate of change of momentum. There is a heavy correlation, but that is already known. We don't need to do more testing to prove that.

So, momentum is extremely relevant. I think that once you understand that, you will start to see why what you are trying to "prove" has already been proven. Just because people don't want to understand it and believe it doesn't make it less proven.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Study the work, not the result of work. We have more than a century of result of work data, shades of death or shades of not death lol.

I have said it before and will say it again. The only way to study the work is to study the result of said work.

Using the example that you keep bringing up: Dyno curves. What are they? They are the result of the work done. All of the engine sensors are also measuring the results of various "work" being done throughout the engine. What is being looked for is correlation between variables so that the engine builders, or transmission builders, or tire manufacturers, or whomever have an understanding of how changing one of the variables that they control can affect the performance of what they are trying to achieve.

As has been mentioned multiple times, this has all been done. Those who have taken the time to actually educate ourselves understand what those variables are, how they correlate to one another and what combination we need to achieve the results we want. Again, just because other people don't want to believe it doesn't make it less true. That is why you get pages and pages of arguments. It isn't because the data is lacking. It is the understanding of the data and the failure to adapt to change.

And as far as your continued use of the term "shades of death". There are no shades of death. Dead is dead.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Love it, page 34 and we’ve added bra size/eq ratio for evaluating women as a yet another subjective to subjective comparison.

Certainly there’s no problem.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

I have said it before and will say it again. The only way to study the work is to study the result of said work.

Using the example that you keep bringing up: Dyno curves. What are they? They are the result of the work done. All of the engine sensors are also measuring the results of various "work" being done throughout the engine. What is being looked for is correlation between variables so that the engine builders, or transmission builders, or tire manufacturers, or whomever have an understanding of how changing one of the variables that they control can affect the performance of what they are trying to achieve.

As has been mentioned multiple times, this has all been done. Those who have taken the time to actually educate ourselves understand what those variables are, how they correlate to one another and what combination we need to achieve the results we want. Again, just because other people don't want to believe it doesn't make it less true. That is why you get pages and pages of arguments. It isn't because the data is lacking. It is the understanding of the data and the failure to adapt to change.

And as far as your continued use of the term "shades of death". There are no shades of death. Dead is dead.

No, studying result of work is cart in front of horse.

Dyno curve is the work potential. Getting the 7000 lb trailer up the Ike Gauntlet in 8 minutes is the result of work. Getting that same truck empty on flat ground to 60mph in 7 seconds is a result of work.

But we knew we could do it because we had the work potential already measured and understood what to expect it could do.

Shades of death simply results of work, 100 yard runner vs drt, mono vs rapid match, not all work potential was used vs most of it was. If all work was used and it didn't die what happened? Not enough penetration? And 'hit me again Ike and this time put some stank on it' we go. We don't need to see anymore result of work, hundreds and thousands of guys see it every year on every type of game. We need to see the work potential and at all distances we need to see it. In order to objectively understand any bullets limitations, it's windows where it will work best for game intended.

You're not seeing the problem. Doesn't seem to matter how many times you 'say it again', every single thread on this since internet inception, and conversations before that, as proof you(we collectively) are not seeing the problem.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Momentum is used to quantify "mass in motion" (to dumb it down), so no, it isn't a measure for work, but it helps to understand how much penetration potential is there. Momentum is also a vector quantity, unlike KE, so it is much more suitable unit of measure when speaking about potential penetration.

Do we use that unit currently? No, and that is a huge part of the problem. It is starting to gain traction in the archery world, but even there, people are too married to KE and refuse to educate themselves.

You say that momentum is irrelevant and then want to measure SD and velocity over a distance. SD is nothing more than weight/diameter(squared). Momentum is mass*velocity. So, if you understand the rate of change of momentum in a medium, you understand how much potential is there for penetration. Diameter of the bullet (or sharpness of the broadhead) are significant variables that impact the rate of change of momentum. There is a heavy correlation, but that is already known. We don't need to do more testing to prove that.

So, momentum is extremely relevant. I think that once you understand that, you will start to see why what you are trying to "prove" has already been proven. Just because people don't want to understand it and believe it doesn't make it less proven.

If we do this right we can add another 20 pages!

The interesting part is now you're almost arguing for exactly what I'm arguing for. That's how muddy momentum gets when you bring it into the equation lol. So your saying energy is relevant now? Lol

And it's not starting to gain traction anywhere, never has and never will, because it's just another interpretation of what I'm saying. Just an interpretation 'often used' of ROC of work over distance in something more dense than air and a poor one at that. Archery, to spears, to bullets, all same thing. Work to penetration relationship. Same energy applied to arrow, more sd, equals more penetration despite the corresponding loss of velocity...fast it goes faster it slows stuff (efficiency). Why moderate velocity on rapid expansion bullets changes their work profile, extends penetration and lengthens the damage along the travel. The arrows aren't being talked about that way, yet, because people are still looking at the cart there too. I brought this up many times over the years, why wouldn't be look at sd of arrows? But that could be another 40 pages if want to go to archery only but rest assure moo cows with .22 solids and Bell's elephants will come into the discussion because same thing. All energy used up in penetration, speed of work helped along by damaging tissue by cutting, bullets same thing but damage from other factors that come from a variable sd bullet shedding work but if solids then gotta find the cns off switch or good luck, same if you chucked a field point, penetration without damage of some sort is a very sad shade of death approaching the wound only category, the arrows are non variable sd projectiles, like spears, like solid/fmj's. Penetration has to be there regardless, work it can do along the way is what determines shade of death. We've been over this ground a few times already.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

There it is again, nothing intelligent or constructive to say so you revert to baseless accusations and insults....troll/keyboard warrior 101

Was trying to help you out, give you a side door to escape from and keep in humorous for both of us. You're determined to cut your own legs off, carry on. You keep on with the mirror thing 'nothing intelligent to say'...that a nice way for you to say I'm dumb? Interesting. Or just making it so in your own mind because you're not understanding what I'm saying?

Hint. It does not matter what you think of me, or vice versa, or with anyone in this entire thread about anyone else. It's the message that matters, focus on it, it will move towards progress. You want to hunt for some way to turn this into keyboard warrior stuff and increase drama and maybe you hope to see someone step out of line and get banned. Did someone send you just to try and do that? See right through it all bud, but you carry on, can't help ya, you gotta do that on your own. Show you where the creek is but that's all, you gotta do the rest. Best of luck.

 

[bmart2622]

Im not your bud, Im not your bro!!! I dont need or want your help so quit acting like you are doing me an favors

 

[The Fish Box]

 

[bmart2622]