Questions about the irrelevance of energy (ft-lbs)

[The Guide]

I'm a high level viewer, catching something that hadn't been seen yet and is my gift back to the community...free of charge.

Hornady, would happily come to work for you and help develop it out. Since it's been in conceptual stage since 2020 much yet to be learned, ie; blended average between two different impact velocities, classes of bullets by velocity ranges (ie; varmint high speed vs typical big game speeds to determine impact velocity standards), and maybe the engineers come up with a couple other ideas that may be a factor or measurable to work transfer rate (such as rpm)? etc.

So we're still literally on all fours in diapers here. That's what I've been trying to say. I can and have showed you singular mathed examples to demonstrate the concept but it's still a long ways from getting much further. It wouldn't take much investment from Hornady to play with this and see if it created opportunity for further bullet development down the road and increase sales and push competitors to keep up. It will need a leader...not me...I just offered a viewpoint that had not been looked at yet, that is all.

Ok, so when we look at buying a start-up company that has something we want to aquire your the one we have the following conversation with...

Me: What do you do here? Describe your position please.

SC: I'm the idea guy! I look at everything from a high level view and come up with ideas nobody has ever come up with. Some of these things we are still in diapers and I'm trying to make us run!

Biz Owner: He's my cousin Dale. My mom made me give him a job. He makes coffee and interrupts meetings with high profile clients with his crazy ramblings that sounds like fever dreams. I'll fire him right now if you will still buy the company.

SC: But I haven't even told you about my theories on sectional density and how it affects bullet performance in wound characteristics!

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Ok, so when we look at buying a start-up company that has something we want to aquire your the one we have the following conversation with...

Me: What do you do here? Describe your position please.

SC: I'm the idea guy! I look at everything from a high level view and come up with ideas nobody has ever come up with. Some of these things we are still in diapers and I'm trying to make us run!

Biz Owner: He's my cousin Dale. My mom made me give him a job. He makes coffee and interrupts meetings with high profile clients with his crazy ramblings that sounds like fever dreams. I'll fire him right now if you will still buy the company.

SC: But I haven't even told you about my theories on sectional density and how it affects bullet performance in wound characteristics!

lol, I estimate construction and operations projects from one end to another because of the high level view and though came from granular boots on the ground twisting wrenches and doing electrical and can estimate singular components of those things, it's the high level viewing that lets me study (data mine) actuals and offers of all aspects of our projects from installs, dismantles, transportation, operations, consumables, asset retirement obligations and more, and build calculators to check and update annually so as to save from constant contact with vendors for every opportunity that comes through the door and typically accuracy has been under 5% and of course I aim to be on the under side with that percentage so as to remain competative and help 'win work', was sourced out for this role and persuaded away from a previous role by someone who knew how my brain worked, 7 years later still doing well with the team and grew quickly to estimate far more than just the installs/dismantles of the construction only side of it, and I can argue our stock has only gone up since I joined the team haha

see the future or kick can down road abilities are gift and curse, apply it to current world goings on and you understand the curse side, being research guy in family and seeing covid/shots coming and try to warn everyone becoming black sheep...you get the idea, way ahead of the curve and yet the stolen mind npc's all around me...just gotta live among them and spend time afield and protect my kids and best bud, bout all I've been able to do there, but have been right all along...anyway, now you know more about me...just what you always wanted to know, my lack of grammar while typing super fast on fun time forums is just a decoy to my true awesomeness, humble like that

 

[wapitibob]

lol, the future isn't for everyone

I'm sure lots of guys said 'if I ever have to start thinking about rangefinders and electronics on my hunts' it's time to sell the rifle and quit.

this is a discussion on a leading edge forum that pushes the boundaries regarding 'hunting'...so this thread fits well here

It's mental masturbation without the payoff.

 

[eric1115]

Bloviate
verb

talk at length, especially in an inflated or empty way.

 

[fwafwow]

Theory - Stinky and Taper are the same person, closely related, or sometimes are in the same room (possibly meeting at McDonald's for morning coffee) posting. *chuckle*

 

[Stinky Coyote]

feelin the love, hugs back

 

[Bugger]

Edit: self-removed mean comment, no need to pile on at this point.

 

[Colorado Cowboy]

Never said that....but why think about bullets and all their properties if I have never had any problem shooting or reloading. I killed my first deer in 19 53 when I was 12years old. I have probably taken close to 100 of them, probably 50 elk, 10 moose and over 100 antelope. I NEVER shoot factory loads, reload my own. I own 8 center fire rifles and all shoot less than moa out to 400 yards ( some over 500). My bullets do a great job in both accuracy and "mushrooming". So why should I care?

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Edit: self-removed mean comment, no need to pile on at this point.

I missed it dang it, don't worry, you can't offend me in any way shape or form, I just take it as love and it would prolly make me wanna fish with you more lol. Bring it on, you can pm it to me? I won't mind

 

[Bugger]

I missed it dang it, don't worry, you can't offend me in any way shape or form, I just take it as love and it would prolly make me wanna fish with you more lol. Bring it on, you can pm it to me? I won't mind

Yay, the internet is healing.
It was something about you and TP having some sort of Gollum/Sméagol entanglement situation. Same goal, vastly different approaches.
But seriously, if you walk into Hornady asking why everyone is wearing diaperses and wanting to extract the precious from gut piles, you may find out how narcan and parking lot curb taste pretty quick.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Yay, the internet is healing.
It was something about you and TP having some sort of Gollum/Sméagol entanglement situation. Same goal, vastly different approaches.
But seriously, if you walk into Hornady asking why everyone is wearing diaperses and wanting to extract the precious from gut piles, you may find out how narcan and parking lot curb taste pretty quick.

I'm sure there's a few of them there with a similar sense of humour, there's a disconnect when you can't exactly see the sh1t eating grin on ones face through the typed words. And only in terminal ballistics am I suggesting we're all wearing diapers in relation to inflight ballistics where we're all running 4 minute miles. Calm yer boobs ya dirty Bugger

I had to look up some Taper posts, assuming TaperPin? anyway, he reloads, I don't, quick easy tell that we are two separate accounts and people. Seems like a decent enough bloke by the few things I quickly read. Jury is out on you though 'Lil-rokslider'

 

[Stinky Coyote]

maybe psi is a usable measure as part of objectifying the 'work' transfer part?, this will muddy things but gel in steel with tapped resettable locking pressure gauges or probes, not a bad thought brought up earlier in the thread, more of this please, but trying to get back on topic, anyone else got ideas that we can help move terminal ballistics from crawling to walking? what will the engineers come up with should they decide to engage? rpm/psi been brought up, I brought up sectional density and work transfer rates, what else could be made objective and useful?, that's what the thread is about...

have we concluded 'the relevance of energy (ft/lbs)' yet?

what's the verdict? irrelevant or relevant?

here's a question, you got a 6.5 grendel 123 gr eldm on one side of you while sitting in camp, a 308 168 gr eldm on the other side of you, both launching same sd bullets at same velocity, big ole g-bear strolls into camp and starts acting up, what rifle are you picking up and why? any objective information there to support your answer?

 

[Bluefish]

here's a question, you got a 6.5 grendel 123 gr eldm on one side of you while sitting in camp, a 308 168 gr eldm on the other side of you, both launching same sd bullets at same velocity, big ole g-bear strolls into camp and starts acting up, what rifle are you picking up and why? any objective information there to support your answer?

That’s easy. Between those two I would grab the Grendel as it’s probably in an AR. More rounds on target quicker for me. If I had my choice I would prefer a 6 arc with 108’s. Even less recoil so I can probably shoot it faster yet.

 

[WTFJohn]

here's a question, you got a 6.5 grendel 123 gr eldm on one side of you while sitting in camp, a 308 168 gr eldm on the other side of you, both launching same sd bullets at same velocity, big ole g-bear strolls into camp and starts acting up, what rifle are you picking up and why? any objective information there to support your answer?

Here's a question: Have you tried to look anything up on your own about this type of data? Do you know about gelatin testing, FBI protocol on the testing, etc?

Here are some links to get started. They are more long winded than your posts, but contain the information you're seeking.

Clear Gel vs Calibrated Organic Ballistic Gel - Good primer of the importance of calibration.

Basics of the FBI Protocol

Hornady Law Enforcement Ammunition & Test Report Application Guide - This is like a ballistic bible for a lot of Hornady ammo. From pistol to rifle to shotgun.

 

[Skydog]

Here's a question: Have you tried to look anything up on your own about this type of data? Do you know about gelatin testing, FBI protocol on the testing, etc?

Here are some links to get started. They are more long winded than your posts, but contain the information you're seeking.

Clear Gel vs Calibrated Organic Ballistic Gel - Good primer of the importance of calibration.

Basics of the FBI Protocol

Hornady Law Enforcement Ammunition & Test Report Application Guide - This is like a ballistic bible for a lot of Hornady ammo. From pistol to rifle to shotgun.

View attachment 848849View attachment 848850View attachment 848851View attachment 848853
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What is the significance (if any) of these two wound channels being very similar in shape/size, but the bottom one being darker, more opaque throughout the wound channel?

 

[HuntHarder]

Almost 200 more ft pounds of energy and a larger bullet made a big difference in max cavity size on that TAP demo. Same bullet, between the 6.5 and .308 except 308 is heavier and larger and has more energy. ...

 

[Stinky Coyote]

That’s easy. Between those two I would grab the Grendel as it’s probably in an AR. More rounds on target quicker for me. If I had my choice I would prefer a 6 arc with 108’s. Even less recoil so I can probably shoot it faster yet.

no, both bolt action with 4 in the belly, no cherry pickin and changing parameters, just a straight comparison to what you pick up and why?

and I bring example up as had been hunting quite awhile with grendels and had this situation happen except bear didn't act up, just left me with thoughts on my little grendel bolt gun sitting beside me and shortly after grabbed a 308, irrational or not but bathing out the difference on mine was 2400 fps vs 2600 on 308 now due to short barrel and 39% more work transferred per inch over same 19" gives me 39% more comfort in the 308...yes old ladies can do it with .22 so the grendel is lots, and regardless what's in your hand you'll not be that comfy when big ole boar g-bear strolls into camp at 80 yards and side eyes you a couple times and does his thing before slowly walking out of site at last light, I'll get 39% more winks sleeping those nights lol so...wouldn't it be nice to have a more objective means to see terminal ballistics differences between all things we choose to hunt with? if not for defensive purposes but simply meat in the freezer purposes as well? I won't speak for everyone but most will grab the 308 and only have a subjective answer to why

 

[WTFJohn]

What is the significance (if any) of these two wound channels being very similar in shape/size, but the bottom one being darker, more opaque throughout the wound channel?

View attachment 848900

I would guess it's just how far into the block relative to the camera the wound channel ended up, i.e. we are looking 'through' more of the block on the 6.5CM.

Almost 200 more ft pounds of energy and a larger bullet made a big difference in max cavity size on that TAP demo. Same bullet, between the 6.5 and .308 except 308 is heavier and larger and has more energy. ...

22% difference in wound cavity (308 winner). 18% difference in penetration depth (6.5CM winner).

According to the post below (Dec 31, 2023), the 6mm 106 gr TAP bullet has identical terminal performance as the 108ELDM (still working on finding a Hornady LE sheet for that bullet). It also has the highest overall performance across all categories than any other bullet in the testing.

Yes and yes. Identical terminal performance to 108gr ELD-M.

 

[Maverick1]

Is there a way to keep specific threads from popping up on the “New Posts”?

I’m aware there is a way to “ignore” specific users (have only done that once, and that user is now banned), and “unwatch” threads.

Is there a way to ignore a specific thread on the forum?

 

[HandgunHTR]

What is the significance (if any) of these two wound channels being very similar in shape/size, but the bottom one being darker, more opaque throughout the wound channel?

View attachment 848900

You should think real hard about the answer to the first part of your question. When you come up with the answer it will make Form’s comments make a lot more sense to you.