Questions about the irrelevance of energy (ft-lbs)

do you have a better idea on how to make terminal ballistics more objective and to a similar level we've reached in inflight ballistics? something that the broad spectrum of hunters can understand the differences of choices and speak a common language fluently?

It’s already done- all the information has been posted repeatedly- that you can’t understand, or refuse to understand just highlights your ignorance and unwillingness to learn.


This is not subjective and is not hard to understand-

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There are too many variables to base a calculation on. All bullets have different internal structure. All impact mediums have different densities and yield strengths. One bullet will not give the SAME wound when impacting an antelope, an elk, and a black bear at the velocity irregardless of distance because each animal has different body structure, muscle density, and hide thickness/stretch.

The reason ballistics can be considered a consistent calulatable science is that the medium of air is consistent along with the pull of gravity. Temperature and humidity have consistent affects on air density and can be measured from a distance and isn't dependent upon an an animals age or how much the animal has had to eat or drink.

BTW, SD has no relevance on how a bullet will perform in medium. A FMJ and a varmint bullet can have the same SD but performance in tissue is 100% different.

Jay
I agree, too many variables, the animals.

That's why the 'rate of change' needs to be seen in a standard medium as 'expected typical performance range in most situations' but based on 'percentage' differences which everyone CAN understand...and then translated into really common languages that most people can even more easily understand like inches and ft/lbs over those inches. To make easy as possible for the gun counter crowd to visualize the general size of grenade or narrow channel for the size of animals they are familiar with.

When you can see to expect 20% deeper with 15% less energy per inch or any combination against any other combination it takes things to another level.

So the question is to all reading this thread....how would you do this? I gave some thoughts on it I've been bouncing off the interwebs thick skin since early 2020. I'm sure we are all open to other ideas and thoughts on how to do this?

So examples again, if you have an 18" 50 ft/lb set up that's been smashing deer size game drt steady and you want to go antelope and have similar then maybe you're looking for a 12" 50 ft/lb option? As you can see that a bunch of the work isn't going to get into the antelope using the 18" set up. Just talking your example out loud.

We don't have an objective way to quickly and easily communicate this or see it for ourselves...and the gun counter crowd needs all the help they can get...right? So we've got work to do here. We have the ability to objectify these rate of change differences to make useful, if you look at what we've done with inflight ballistics over thousands of yards....how hard can it be to get somewhere close over 2" (gophers) to 48" cape buff? There's math there we aren't looking at yet that could change the game.

A lot goes on in a very short distance but we just blabber subjectively. Short distance math, best seen in percentages of rate of change and energy transfer then applied to 'expected inches and energy transfer through most critters on most common angles', math/numbers - common languages the masses can understand and hard to argue about.

Variable sd bullets we shoot but we don't measure the variable...we measure the wind/atmosphere variables in inflight ballistics, why not the bullet upset variables once swimming starts? We still keep talking about wounds in the animals or bullet expand 2.5x, went this deep, and retained x weight, and that's where we stop and go subjective from there on what it means...we're looking at the wrong thing, look at the bullets. Compare them to each other in standard and meaningful way (numbers) so we can move beyond the subjective mess that is terminal ballistics.

Every animal is completely different variable each and every shot so studying them shot to shot is a waste of time. You can't get usable comparable objective info this way. Study the bullets in a standard swimming media instead.

As it stands energy is largely an irrelevant measure, the best way and has been for awhile is 'for game intended' match construction, sd, and impact velocity. Simple. Energy doesn't really factor yet we know the bullet does 'work' but no objective way to put on paper. So we can/have successfully gotten by and chosen way better over the past ~15 years by using that formula. I think there's a way that energy/work does play a factor we can use to explain the trauma we see in the animals but right now it's all subjective viewpoints with many saying it's 'irrelevant' and I don't disagree with that. I just think we aren't able to see a better way to show it yet.
 
It’s already done- all the information has been posted repeatedly- that you can’t understand, or refuse to understand just highlights your ignorance and unwillingness to learn.


This is not subjective and is not hard to understand-

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haha, awesome, do you have the link to the calculator that can not just explain that one example to the gun counter crowd but that will show every other option against it? is there a common language and math/numbers to speak between each other and all levels of mouth breathers can understand? what was the sdrr and etr of that combo and what impact velocity was it? ;)

I could math that out if you give some details? Impact velocity, final bullet weight and diameter, distance travelled (in animal). Then compare it to the gel version above it. And there...one quick baseline example of what a specific sdrr and etr looks like at a field impact velocity on a live animal. It would be a start, hook me up, I'll work this one out and see if helps others see more what I'm trying to say.

Will also need the final bullet weight, diameter, and impact velocity on the gel test.

See what I mean? Not even enough info from the gel to get a comparable baseline so I'll make assumptions on the impact velocity and finished weight/diameter. You maybe got more info than that from the deer in the pic by actually having the bullet to measure? We only take it to grade 3, lets get it to high school level here.
 
So because all the info isn't there in the gel thing posted, looked up blackhills load at 3000 fps (24"), assumed 3050 fps for the gel pic said 26" barrel, then assumed 3000' elevation and the gel at 100 yards? for 2873 fps impact, now have to assume by look of bullet it's half it's weight so will just go with 100 gr at 1/2" dial., we got the 13.5" travel from the picture and that's about it.

So using those assumptions we start with .268 sd, 3263 ft/lbs, finish with 0.057 sd and dumped 241.7 ft/lbs per inch (holy sh1t). Sectional density reduction rate 21.2% and energy transfer rate (per inch) 7.4%.

Does one not see a number in that 241.7 ft/lbs per inch and correlation to both the gel and deer grenade?

Now we gotta imagine if the bullets were all tested at say two standard impact velocities then averaged for the rates. So they could all be compared to each other the same way. May be hard to recover bullet from that deer lol, maybe nothing left of it? Gel does allow you to recover most things, even if it blows up completely to 0 sd you still get a depth measure and final sd of 0 and you can math the energy dump per inch and sd reduction rate etc.

But still, lets do the math on the deer example if we have the bullet to measure for final sd? The actual impact velocity. And can make assumption on that depth of penetration in the picture of say 14"? Just need a few more details to finish this example.

The point of what I'm trying to say is that you won't have to shoot a deer in the ham to see what a calculator could tell you to expect. But this is a fun exercise anyway and what an example lol...that's a formula I dig haha...other than the recoil which I don't want any part of. I don't need to turn my big game animals into canoes lol.

my post on page 8 I edited the sdrr/etr to percentages which were like 4.7% sdrr and 5% energy transfer rate for the 19" eldm and the 36" mono comparison was like 1.7% sdrr and 2.7% etr.....now look at this particular gel example of 21.2% sdrr and 7.4% etr and you can start so see the difference between say a 6.5 grendel and this 300 wm but the big one being 52 ft/lbs per inch vs 241 ft/lbs per inch and that the first example is 19" vs this one at 13.5"....numbers showing you what to expect from 240+ ft/lbs/inch over 13.5" vs 52 ft/lbs/inch over 19" and why one example is overkill for deer size game and the other more likely to leave some meat for you to cut and wrap

these are the droids we're looking for....a standard way to compare expected/typical performance by numbers based on rates of change and energy transfer, languages we can all learn to speak quickly and fluently
 
Quickly?!?! 🤣🤣🤣
lol, you do it faster

you can sit on ice cream and tell us what flavour it is eh smartass? ;)

the point is to start at the start and have the conversations and come up with the ideas lol, which we have been doing for way too long, the info available to choose quickly for goals we desire, via a calculator and objective numbers to work with instead of wallop factor etc., now Form's example has some extreme wallop factor haha, now lets get into some usable numbers and across the board to compare all options
 
Just when everything was starting to click for me, and I finally understood that all I needed to know was velocity (fps) and bullet construction (fragmenting, bonded/partition, or mono) to predict terminal performance...then Stinky shows up... ;)
 
Yeah, I shoot animals in the chest and keep the speed above the minimum velocity required for bullet upset and they die...the end
don't we all?

well except Form, he shoots them in the ass, way above minimum velocity for bullet upset, and no...it's not Saturday night

and then we all go on and on about it unsuccinctly, well, most of us do ;)
 
Sufficient energy is needed to ensure proper projectile expansion. Beyond that energy is irrelevant. The resulting tissue damage from proper projectile placement is key.

Plenty of elk have been killed with a 6mm projectile having “only” 80 ft-lbs of KE. Right through the heart or lungs and they die. Every single time.

I am late to this party and it has probably already been point out that no this is wrong. Sufficient velocity is needed to insure proper expansion. Energy has nothing to do with it. As has no doubt been said many times energy is simply a formula of velocity and mass. That mass could be a mono or frangible. It takes more velocity for a mono to properly expand than a frangible. If bullets weigh the same the energy is the same. Energy is irrelevant.
 
What needs to be validated is the shooters ability if terminal effectiveness is the desired output. The rest is pretty simple, get the bullet there with enough velocity to open.
 
Just when everything was starting to click for me, and I finally understood that all I needed to know was velocity (fps) and bullet construction (fragmenting, bonded/partition, or mono) to predict terminal performance...then Stinky shows up... ;)
you'll think twice before starting another thread like this eh? ;)

just trying to help a brotha out haha
 
I am late to this party and it has probably already been point out that no this is wrong. Sufficient velocity is needed to insure proper expansion. Energy has nothing to do with it. As has no doubt been said many times energy is simply a formula of velocity and mass. That mass could be a mono or frangible. It takes more velocity for a mono to properly expand than a frangible. If bullets weigh the same the energy is the same. Energy is irrelevant.
is it though?

need sufficient sd and construction for game intended to go with that impact velocity, it's a few variables that have to come together, most of our options are in the wheelhouse, it's the fringe ones light on one of the items needs to compensate with more on the other items

but but....if you have a 123 gr eldm dump 55 ft/lbs per inch of work over 18" or a 123 gr mono dumping only 27 ft/lbs per inch over 36" and you've exited the animal after 15"....is the energy actually irrelevant? are you taking the eldm option or the mono option? which one do you expect to be more drt and which one do you think will be the 100 yard runner most commonly?

look at Forms bambi, you think ~240 ft/lbs per inch over only 13.5" is irrelevant?

round 2, FIGHT!

hehe
 
I am late to this party and it has probably already been point out that no this is wrong. Sufficient velocity is needed to insure proper expansion. Energy has nothing to do with it. As has no doubt been said many times energy is simply a formula of velocity and mass. That mass could be a mono or frangible. It takes more velocity for a mono to properly expand than a frangible. If bullets weigh the same the energy is the same. Energy is irrelevant.
See post #10.
 
Personally, I believe there's a relationship between how much the gun punishes the shooter, to how much it punishes the quarry.
unless most of that punishment leaves the animal and punishes the hillside instead, then you beat yourself silly for no reason ;)

you can poke a pretty small hole in a goat with a 416 and flatten one with a 130gr ballistic tip from a .270...the only thing getting punished with the 416 is you and the mountain and the mountain could care less (pretty sure boddington did this very example, should be an article somewhere out there)
 
Kinetic energy (KE) does not meaningful translate into energy transfer to tissue, in part because that transfer takes multiple forms. But, yes, all else being equal more KE means more potential tissue damage by energy transfer. The problem is all things are never equal.

The most efficient and complete energy transfer is less lethal rounds like rubber bullets, but the manner of that transfer actually makes killing less likely.

Similarly, arrows are very bad at transferring energy to a target, and have low KE to start with, but the natural of the transfer makes them pretty lethal.

KE fails to describe relative wounding potential, unless talking of the exact same projectile, in which case velocity is a more intuitive and useful concept. Further, KE is badly misunderstood by most, making it even worse as a descriptor because people don't actually know what they are talking about.

Even in trauma, penetrating wounds are categorized as high (generally above 2000 fps) or low (generally below 2000 fps) velocity. This reflects that velocity, no KE is what matters in the nature of a wound.

Similarly, bullet manufacturers discuss expansion velocity, not expansion KE. The fact that velocity is part of KE doesn't change the fact that the two are very different metrics and velocity is the more functional of the two.

Further, what is the killing difference of a 7 PRC at 50 yards vs 650 yards using a 180 gr ELDM? What is the energy differenc?

50 yards 3217 ft.lb
650 yards 1798 ft.lb
=1419 difference.

My 243 has more energy at the muzzle using a 108 ELDM (1948 ft.lb) than a 7 PRC at 650. What does that tell you about how well each kills? If KE is meaningful, than those who argue for "energy" must admit that a close range 6 creedmoor shot is more effective than a long range 7 PRC shot. Good luck getting that kind of consistency in those arguments.

You started down the right path when you mentioned "potential". That is the only way in which you can think of KE as something useful. The higher the KE the more potential killing power that projectile has. Bullet construction is how that potential is used. If you built a bullet out of solid tungsten the "potential" would be wasted if trying to kill an animal but great if you are trying to punch through steel.
 
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