Question for precision and reloading geeks

[NevadaMike]

I am not new but my experience levels is low at anything other than basic hunting reloading. I am working on a NRL-H rifle for my first try and shooting long. Let's see if I can be brief enough. I loaded 6 10 shot groups for my 6mm Creedmoor with 108 ELD Match and 105 VLD Hunting . My best and final 10 shot group at 100 yards was with Berger 105 VLD-H. It was good with an SD of 9. All 10 grouped well under 1 inch. I went to the range today and shot two to confirm zero at 100 and they were both touching so I marched my target out to 300 yards confirmed and got an 11.5 inch group shooting 16 rounds! I am shooting off of a concrete bench with a bipod and a rear bag. I felt solid. When I was walking back from setting up the target the weather changed. The temperatures did not change but the wind came up to an estimated 10 to 15mph and gusty. The wind was erratic from anywhere directly behind me to 90 degrees left to right. I do not have a Kestrel yet. So my question is can I blame that large group on the wind or should I be looking at more load dev with maybe the new Berger 109 LRHT? I did not make any wind corrections when shooting today. Thanks for reading!

 

[Harvey_NW]

If I'm correct in the way I understand it, you got opposite results of what I would expect to have happen. Tailwind can push a projectile downward, left to right cross would also be downward and right. But I don't think you'd see the effect in the elevation at that range with that wind, more likely just some of the shots being pushed right. I had a similar load in my 6 Creed and ran some numbers in my calculator real quick, 10 MPH full value gives me 4.8" of correction, if wind was variable the 9 in the center don't seem too crazy. The 6 up top outside the diamond are what I'd be concerned about. IMHO, that might be indicative of poor rear support, like the ass end of the stock is dropping causing a high miss. I definitely don't think it's the load if your 100 yard groups look like that. Interested to hear what others have to say.

 

[NevadaMike]

If I'm correct in the way I understand it, you got opposite results of what I would expect to have happen. Tailwind can push a projectile downward, left to right cross would also be downward and right. But I don't think you'd see the effect in the elevation at that range with that wind, more likely just some of the shots being pushed right. I had a similar load in my 6 Creed and ran some numbers in my calculator real quick, 10 MPH full value gives me 4.8" of correction, if wind was variable the 9 in the center don't seem too crazy. The 6 up top outside the diamond are what I'd be concerned about. IMHO, that might be indicative of poor rear support, like the ass end of the stock is dropping causing a high miss. I definitely don't think it's the load if your 100 yard groups look like that. Interested to hear what others have to say.

Thanks for the reply. I did not know what to expect I just was hoping for a much tighter group. My point of aim with .9 Mils dialed in was center of target on all shots. It very well could be me but the rear of the rifle was on a heavy game changer bag. The reticle was solid. My bipod on the other hand is a cheap one and I could not really lean into it on the concrete bench or it just slid forward.

 

[deadwolf]

My suggestion is to get off the bench and get prone, make sure you can load the bipod, get a rock rock solid rear rest, and do your part as the shooter in regards to the fundamentals. Shoot that 300 yrd group agian and see what happens.


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[Andrew11]

I would agree about loading up some more of that load and shooting again. If you were shooting on the same bench, and the same form as 100 yards I dont think you would have that big of a difference.
Another note, if you are trying to shoot groups and just confirm a load I try not to do it on a windy day. I try to eliminate that variable. But once the load is done and confirmed, I will shoot it in the wind.

 

[NevadaMike]

I would agree about loading up some more of that load and shooting again. If you were shooting on the same bench, and the same form as 100 yards I dont think you would have that big of a difference.
Another note, if you are trying to shoot groups and just confirm a load I try not to do it on a windy day. I try to eliminate that variable. But once the load is done and confirmed, I will shoot it in the wind.

Thanks Andrew. It has a pretty mild recoil but do you think adding the Seekins brake that came with it will help as well. I plan on running it with a can if I can make weight but I have to figure out what bipod I want first so I was shooting without a muzzle device.

 

[Slick8]

It's been said above but I agree, that wind at 300 should not have caused those groups.

I'd load 3 to 5 shot groups and retest at 300 in best conditions possible.

The 108 ELDm is a great bullet as is the 105 but I'd look for some 105-109 hybrids. They're a little easier to tune and stay in tune. But, I know many times we shoot what we can get our hands on.

Were you compensating for the wind?
What bipod are you running?
What's you rifle scope set up and weight?

 

[Andrew11]

If you are doing load development you should do it with however you plan on shooting the rifle. If you plan on shooting/hunting with the can on( or the brake) do your load workup with it on the barrel. This can and will change barrel harmonics.

 

[MJW]

I am not new but my experience levels is low at anything other than basic hunting reloading. I am working on a NRL-H rifle for my first try and shooting long. Let's see if I can be brief enough. I loaded 6 10 shot groups for my 6mm Creedmoor with 108 ELD Match and 105 VLD Hunting . My best and final 10 shot group at 100 yards was with Berger 105 VLD-H. It was good with an SD of 9. All 10 grouped well under 1 inch. I went to the range today and shot two to confirm zero at 100 and they were both touching so I marched my target out to 300 yards confirmed and got an 11.5 inch group shooting 16 rounds! I am shooting off of a concrete bench with a bipod and a rear bag. I felt solid. When I was walking back from setting up the target the weather changed. The temperatures did not change but the wind came up to an estimated 10 to 15mph and gusty. The wind was erratic from anywhere directly behind me to 90 degrees left to right. I do not have a Kestrel yet. So my question is can I blame that large group on the wind or should I be looking at more load dev with maybe the new Berger 109 LRHT? I did not make any wind corrections when shooting today. Thanks for reading!

Well looking at the groups, the 300yrd makes no sense. To me something is loose, brake, scope , scope base or shooter error. That’s where I would start looking. Also as someone else mentioned get off the bench and on your belly. If you are going to running that in matches always zero from the prone! I have shot that cartridge for many years and still do. Not sure what brass you’re are using? I have used Lapua and Alpha, both work great. I use small magnum primers and H4350 with the 115 DTAC bullets. I would lean towards the heavier bullets, 108ELDM, 109HYBRD, or the 115 DTAC for that cartridge. Speed node that always worked for me is the low to mid 2900fps. My barrels would last around 1800rds. 7 twist works the best. I have tried 7, 7.2, and 7.5. Keep playing around with it, choose one of those heavier bullets and I think you will be happy! Here is a target from an F/tr match, off a bipod and rear bag, 600yards, I shot a few years back to give you an idea what the round can do. This was with 115 DTAC’s running at 2940fps.

 

[NevadaMike]

Thanks Slick8. I was not compensating for the wind and I held the same point of aim throughout. I was looking for my grouping so I did not want to change or experiment. I was using a cheap little bipod I got from Fierce a few years ago. I am running the new Leupold Mark4 HD and it weighs in at 10 pounds 8 ounces with the bipod. As far as the 105s I was hoping that a hunting bullet would do the trick for dual purposes and it grouped better than the 108s did.

 

[NevadaMike]

If you are doing load development you should do it with however you plan on shooting the rifle. If you plan on shooting/hunting with the can on( or the brake) do your load workup with it on the barrel. This can and will change barrel harmonics.

Yep. I know I will need to tweak things. I am shooting skills next month in Arbuckle where I plan to finalize my equipment to stay under 12 pounds. I will be the guy with my full credit card number, expiration date and three digit code printed on my shirt.

 

[Novahunter]

Shooting "groups" beyond 100 yards is not something I have ever done.

300 yards isn't long range, but evenvironmentals will have an affect on your bullet at that range.

100 yards measures the precision and repeatibility of your system. Beyond that, you are testing your skill as a shooter to read conditions and compensate so the bullet always hits the target.

 

[Shortschaf]

Wind alone wouldnt cause that vertical spread. Something else going on. Out of curiousity whats the twist rate

 

[NevadaMike]

Well looking at the groups, the 300yrd makes no sense. To me something is loose, brake, scope , scope base or shooter error. That’s where I would start looking. Also as someone else mentioned get off the bench and on your belly. If you are going to running that in matches always zero from the prone! I have shot that cartridge for many years and still do. Not sure what brass you’re are using? I have used Lapua and Alpha, both work great. I use small magnum primers and H4350 with the 115 DTAC bullets. I would lean towards the heavier bullets, 108ELDM, 109HYBRD, or the 115 DTAC for that cartridge. Speed node that always worked for me is the low to mid 2900fps. My barrels would last around 1800rds. 7 twist works the best. I have tried 7, 7.2, and 7.5. Keep playing around with it, choose one of those heavier bullets and I think you will be happy! Here is a target from an F/tr match, off a bipod and rear bag, 600yards, I shot a few years back to give you an idea what the round can do. This was with 115 DTAC’s running at 2940fps.

Thanks for the great information. I am running right at 3100fps. I do not seek out speed but my SD and ES just kept getting tighter and tighter. I just stopped there when that group showed up. I am using Alpha brass and Federal LRP. In hindsight I wish I would have gone with SRP just based on availability. I was hoping yesterday would be the day I verified it worked out with 20 rounds downrange. It's probably the shooter. I will look for a better bipod or shoot of bags only next from the prone position. I am going to drill Sargent @Formidilosus shooting camp in June for my skills and ego tune up.

 

[Vern400]

You're getting good input here. Nothing says you need to change the load yet. HOW you hold the gun makes a big difference. I've had a big poofy jacket change my point of impact slighly. You just need a very disciplined consistent approach to holding the gun as range increases. I'm going to assume you're also using a disciplined approach to making sure your rifle is perfectly vertical. When you start throwing bullets a metet above the line of sight and letting the bullet drop to the Target, vertical matters a whole lot. A shooter can get by with bad habits at 100 yd. That's like 8% of your rifle's capability. At 400 yd a shooter's skill running the gun begins to show. And I don't mean to sound condescending. I'm really not all that good compared to some of the guys on this forum.

Recheck your torques on action screws and mount screws and all that crap. And try it again if you can with a very light, steady breeze. I like that more than dead still air.

I have seen groups "tighten up" past a hundred yards as the bullet goes to sleep, and I confirmed that with Nosler tech support. I have one rifle that does it more often than not but it's not a 6 mm. If your bullet, velocity, twist rate all match up I can't explain a jump from 1 moa to what you're getting.

 

[Axlrod]

You're getting good input here. Nothing says you need to change the load yet. HOW you hold the gun makes a big difference. I've had a big poofy jacket change my point of impact slighly. You just need a very disciplined consistent approach to holding the gun as range increases. I'm going to assume you're also using a disciplined approach to making sure your rifle is perfectly vertical. When you start throwing bullets a metet above the line of sight and letting the bullet drop to the Target, vertical matters a whole lot. A shooter can get by with bad habits at 100 yd. That's like 8% of your rifle's capability. At 400 yd a shooter's skill running the gun begins to show. And I don't mean to sound condescending. I'm really not all that good compared to some of the guys on this forum.

Recheck your torques on action screws and mount screws and all that crap. And try it again if you can with a very light, steady breeze. I like that more than dead still air.

I have seen groups "tighten up" past a hundred yards as the bullet goes to sleep, and I confirmed that with Nosler tech support. I have one rifle that does it more often than not but it's not a 6 mm. If your bullet, velocity, twist rate all match up I can't explain a jump from 1 moa to what you're getting.

So if the bullet is heading to the right at 100 yards and goes to sleep, it veers to the left past 100 yards? And bullets going left veer right? Low bullets veer up? High bullets veer down? How do they know when and where to veer?

 

[Slick8]

Thanks Slick8. I was not compensating for the wind and I held the same point of aim throughout. I was looking for my grouping so I did not want to change or experiment. I was using a cheap little bipod I got from Fierce a few years ago. I am running the new Leupold Mark4 HD and it weighs in at 10 pounds 8 ounces with the bipod. As far as the 105s I was hoping that a hunting bullet would do the trick for dual purposes and it grouped better than the 108s did.

I'd go though all components of the rifle / rings and ensure they're tight. Same with the scope, is it a "known" good scope?
Find a front rest or better bipod.
Pick a good day and shoot 3-5 shot groups to reduce ammo cost. It should tell you what you need to know based on the above issues.
The VLDs will work fine IMO but the Hybrids are just a little more forgiving and are great hunting bullets.

I don't see where you've stated, what make is the rifle? That 100 yard group should yield 3 inches give or take at 300.

Best of luck and please update through the process.

 

[Castle Rock]

Bipod is bouncing
you need carpet or something on the bench

 

[Slick8]

I thought the same thing, may need to properly load the bipod but a front rest would be better.

 

[NevadaMike]

Wind alone wouldnt cause that vertical spread. Something else going on. Out of curiousity whats the twist rate

Twist is 1:8