Question - can anyone point me to studies of lead vs copper bullets on game?

[ddavis_1313]

Be careful of agenda-fueled “studies.”




P

Kind of like “peer reviewed journals”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1808337793904697675

Or the weaponization of “climate change”….


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[rifletuner]

Well, I have spent the last 2 days reading every study I can find comparing lead bullets to copper. I am not finding any scientific paper that talks about copper bullets not killing as well as lead. Every study I have found has stated that lead and copper bullets perform the same. And where they actually mention wound channels, they state that these are the same between lead and copper as well.

And now that these studies have been out for years, the newer studies point to these and pretty much all conclude that hunters should adopt no lead bullets. Every study basically states that lead is bad and should be removed from the environment, and copper ammo is the way forward when it comes to hunting.

There is no mention of issues about the specific features of would channels. No mention that copper bullets tend to perform better at speed vs lead which will typically expand better as velocities get lower. Most studies conclude that animals shot with copper travel further before becoming incapacitated, but this is universally dismissed in the studies as being negligible and irrelevant.

In the absence of anything that I can point to that refutes the government claims about the benefits of moving to copper ammo is going to make it impossible to put forward an argument for lead bullets that they would consider.

 

[northernalpine]

@rifletuner I think somewhere in the infamous “.223 for bear, elk, deer” thread, there were a number of studies posted specific to bullet construction. You’d have to dig through the first 100 or so pages but I’m pretty sure it’s in there and the debate was derived from match vs copper bullets. Don’t quote me 100% on this, but you may find something close or closer to what you are looking for.

Edit to add link to .223 thread:

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

Edit to add link:

Copper bullets can be inhumane

The truth about copper bullets versus lead core bullet designs

www.ballisticstudies.com

 

[ddavis_1313]

Well, I have spent the last 2 days reading every study I can find comparing lead bullets to copper. I am not finding any scientific paper that talks about copper bullets not killing as well as lead. Every study I have found has stated that lead and copper bullets perform the same. And where they actually mention wound channels, they state that these are the same between lead and copper as well.

And now that these studies have been out for years, the newer studies point to these and pretty much all conclude that hunters should adopt no lead bullets. Every study basically states that lead is bad and should be removed from the environment, and copper ammo is the way forward when it comes to hunting.

There is no mention of issues about the specific features of would channels. No mention that copper bullets tend to perform better at speed vs lead which will typically expand better as velocities get lower. Most studies conclude that animals shot with copper travel further before becoming incapacitated, but this is universally dismissed in the studies as being negligible and irrelevant.

In the absence of anything that I can point to that refutes the government claims about the benefits of moving to copper ammo is going to make it impossible to put forward an argument for lead bullets that they would consider.

Please see my link above pertaining to “scientific/peer reviewed journals”. It may shed light on your search for a “study” that fits your needs and why one doesn’t exist.


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[rifletuner]

Please see my link above pertaining to “scientific/peer reviewed journals”. It may shed light on your search for a “study” that fits your needs and why one doesn’t exist.


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Yes, I understand. Its just depressing this is thee case.

 

[MJB]

When I was younger we hunted ducks with #5 in 2 3/4 shells now we useh #3 in 3".....steel needs speed to kill

As for BG lead is very forgiving copper not so much. Hit bone with copper and you're good to go

 

[Jstumbaugh]

I don’t have many copper kills to add much experience related info but I will add this. Copper shoots well out of my 243. I shot a doe this year testing the bullet. 90 yard shot, broadside eighth behind the shoulder. She made if 60 yards. Caliber size entrance and nickel exit. Extremely little meat loss which was fine as I am meat hunting. Decent blood trail. Had I shot this deer with a cup/core bullet I doubt it would have made it 10/20 yards as my last 20 or so have. The wound would be worse but I would feel better with the cup/core on a marginal shot. Might have to try it on a shoulder shot this year for comparison.

 

[def90]

Meateater has a video on YouTube I believe, or at least an article on their site.


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They had a whole podcast about it if i remember right.

Basically there is a link between lead poisoning and raptors/scavengers and copper bullets kill animals just as well.

 

[Jason Snyder]

As for BG lead is very forgiving copper not so much. Hit bone with copper and you're good to go

There is no logical need to hit bone with copper bullets. Put it in the boiler room and it kills them. Your POA should be the top of the heart/bottom of the lungs and the arterial bundles that are in between. I’ve shot a number of elk with coppers and some of them truly took two steps and fell over.

This bull made it 20 yards with a blood trail like this the entire way. .280 Remington with a 136 grain Hammer.

 

[Macintosh]

@rifletuner is bow hunting legal there? Ive heard of places where it is not legal due to the time between impact and death being considered unacceptable. If so where you are, a connection to that and a bullet making a similarly narrow wound channel + studies showing further distance travelled till incapacitation could draw a parallel. I personally choose to use copper because of the narrow wound channels, even though I acknowledge the reduced wound channel especially if you compare to a frangible lead bullet, and have found that game consistently travels further after a hit with an arrow than it does with a copper bullet—but maybe that is a data-based argument you could make about which bullets are more humane simply in terms of a few seconds faster kill from lead.

 

[Bluumoon]

Turn the tables ask for the why.
Are raptor #s down?
Where does lead fall in leading causes of mortality in raptors?
Is there actual evidence that bullet lead is the same lead found wherever the problem ( iv there is one) is?
Etc