Puffy-over or under shell?

[Fritz D]

I wonder if Twight is still doing the Gym Jones thing in SLC?
I’ve never met him, but he sounds like quite a character. His book “Kiss or Kill” is a classic, imo.

 

[medvedyt]

the school of mountains guide from chamonix exists since 1946 and that training was used to develop teaching for guides in most of alpine countries en europe as well in south and north america, the fact that some used to develop new wording for technologies doesnt mean it did not exists before ...

 

[Poser]

I wonder if Twight is still doing the Gym Jones thing in SLC?
I’ve never met him, but he sounds like quite a character. His book “Kiss or Kill” is a classic, imo.

No, he walked away from GJ several years ago, maybe quite a few years ago at this point. He had started a new gym called "The Sect", but I'm not sure if that's still around either. Or, at least, he's not involved with it. I've intermittently listened to a few of his podcasts episodes, but nothing consistent enough to be in the know, however, his new website bio suggests that he dropped the podcast and everything else as well:

About — Mark Twight

www.marktwight.com

 

[Poser]

, the fact that some used to develop new wording for technologies doesnt mean it did not exists before ...

I don’t think anyone has claimed that.

Chuck Berry didn’t invent Rock n Roll, but he did codify it and pass along a lot of information about how to effectively play it. For that matter, The Beatles probably learned everything they knew about music from a combination of The Everly Brothers and MoTown, but they’ll always be credited as the ones to codify the idea of a rock band.

 

[medvedyt]

I don’t think anyone has claimed that.

Chuck Berry didn’t invent Rock n Roll, but he did codify it and pass along a lot of information about how to effectively play it. For that matter, The Beatles probably learned everything they knew about music from a combination of The Everly Brothers and MoTown, but they’ll always be credited as the ones to codify the idea of a rock band.

well you should read more about Mark Twight lol ... but we are far from puffy over or under lol

 

[Poser]

well you should read more about Mark Twight lol ... but we are far from puffy over or under lol

I read his book "Extreme Alpinism" back in the day. From what I recall, it was systems and methods that he recommended for alpine climbing including wearing, if I remember correctly, a synthetic belay jacket so that the belayer, who would be sweaty from just climbing a pitch, could dry out and stay warm. Leading/following in blocks of 4 pitches at a time. Plus, the use of synthetic sleeping bags, pit zips being a waist of weight (I disagree, but that's me), becoming a master technician of diagnosing stove issues and other suggestions for lightweight gear, endurance nutrition as well as off season training plans.

The only claim that I recall him making about "being the first" at any type of methodology was that his generation of peers were the first alpinists to fully train year around for climbing, put time in the gym, lift weights, wear HR monitors and take a systematic approach to training. Say what you want to say about Chamonix climbers, but you and I both know they were doing little more than eating cheese, drinking wine and smoking cigarettes during the off season.

 

[medvedyt]

I read his book "Extreme Alpinism" back in the day. From what I recall, it was systems and methods that he recommended for alpine climbing including wearing, if I remember correctly, a synthetic belay jacket so that the belayer, who would be sweaty from just climbing a pitch, could dry out and stay warm. Leading/following in blocks of 4 pitches at a time. Plus, the use of synthetic sleeping bags, pit zips being a waist of weight (I disagree, but that's me), becoming a master technician of diagnosing stove issues and other suggestions for lightweight gear, endurance nutrition as well as off season training plans.

The only claim that I recall him making about "being the first" at any type of methodology was that his generation of peers were the first alpinists to fully train year around for climbing, put time in the gym, lift weights, wear HR monitors and take a systematic approach to training. Say what you want to say about Chamonix climbers, but you and I both know they were doing little more than eating cheese, drinking wine and smoking cigarettes during the off season.

sorry your description about chamonix in the 70s and the 80s is not the one i recall as during what you call the off season we were doing what was called voies d hiver or winter routes ... for the gym i agree it was not done in the time directly but we were all working physical jobs in farms or constructions when not climbing.

extreme alpinism is the end of 1999 for the 1st publication and i can tell that before that time some people used synthetic for clothing or sleeping but they did not publish it lol ...

but yes he was part of the hype that created the fast climbing, lightweight and nutrition (it is a 2000s thing lol). while i concede he did well for nutrition and endurance i cannot agree on fact climbing and lightweight as the drifts that happened caused more than a few issues up to deaths with people not ready for those extremes.

 

[Poser]

but yes he was part of the hype that created the fast climbing, lightweight and nutrition (it is a 2000s thing lol). while i concede he did well for nutrition and endurance i cannot agree on fact climbing and lightweight as the drifts that happened caused more than a few issues up to deaths with people not ready for those extremes.

No doubt. I was out and about climbing a lot 1999-2003 and I definitely encountered people who were over the heads seem to have taken direct inspiration from Extreme Alpinism. I may in fact, have been one them myself.....

 

[medvedyt]

No doubt. I was out and about climbing a lot 1999-2003 and I definitely encountered people who were over the heads seem to have taken direct inspiration from Extreme Alpinism. I may in fact, have been one them myself.....

i ve met people in the pyrenees at 2150m so not too high in 2003 july where we encountered a storm that became snow and we reached -10c within 2 hours. just sneakers shorts and no extra layers let alone mittens or tuques: imagine the end for those 4 guys if they did not meet us with our heavy packs lol ...all of us had spare things .. old school can be a life saver even if heavy at first ... im still meeting lightweight crowd here in the summer and still cannot believe it. last year in tombstone no mittens or tuque and we got snow lol ...

 

[merkedmallard]

First lite Chamberlin down jacket for over the top ideal choice?

 

[medvedyt]

First lite Chamberlin down jacket for over the top ideal choice?

it will depend how it will fit and how your down react when wet ...

 

[leavy76]

I used to do some alpine climbing BITD and the standard practice was you'd throw your puffy/insulation layer on over your shell once you got to the belay. This system would use your body heat to dry out your shell and additional layers while you were stationary. When it was time to climb again, you'd simply remove the insulation layer and get moving.

Exactly this. I have an oversized puffy filled with waterproof down that wear over my softshell when glassing/resting. Belay jacket for the win!

 

[justinspicher]

My puffy has always been my shell, never worn anything over it, except maybe another puffy.

 

[medvedyt]

My puffy has always been my shell, never worn anything over it, except maybe another puffy.

Exactly this. I have an oversized puffy filled with waterproof down that wear over my softshell when glassing/resting. Belay jacket for the win!

indeed but it will depend on the way your bellay is reacting with wet conditions. the reason many adopted synthetic one in the days. nowadays it is a little different with down and some treatment but in pouring conditions it might be a good idea to take time to change the order of the clothing if doable of course and not endangering yourself and the anchors.

 

[leavy76]

indeed but it will depend on the way your bellay is reacting with wet conditions. the reason many adopted synthetic one in the days. nowadays it is a little different with down and some treatment but in pouring conditions it might be a good idea to take time to change the order of the clothing if doable of course and not endangering yourself and the anchors.

Sorry, I meant belay...as in the climbing term. The belayer is managing the rope while not climbing, and the jacket worn in that role is commonly called a belay jacket. You put on the puffy insulating layer while relatively stationary. Akin to sitting still while glassing when not on the move.

That said, always a good call to bring a lightweight (typically 3-layer) packable shell in case it starts to dump for sure.

 

[medvedyt]

Sorry, I meant belay...as in the climbing term. The belayer is managing the rope while not climbing, and the jacket worn in that role is commonly called a belay jacket. You put on the puffy insulating layer while relatively stationary. Akin to sitting still while glassing when not on the move.

That said, always a good call to bring a lightweight (typically 3-layer) packable shell in case it starts to dump for sure.

for sure it is not time to change your clothing while on the bellay ... but i was more thinking on a bivvy position with anchors and not alone which make as well.

 

[Macintosh]

for sure it is not time to change your clothing while on the bellay ... but i was more thinking on a bivvy position with anchors and not alone which make as well.

Well, its actually common practice to do exactly that. A plaquette-style belay device, which used to be a europe-only thing, is super popular now and allows better safety while also doing other stuff in this exact scenario. Sop is get to belay, create anchor and tie in, pull slack out and set up belay, then while the 2nd is tearing down the previous belay and climbing you can take your pack off and deal with yourself appropriately (puffy, heavier gloves, food, water or hot beve, etc), all while managing the rope. This might look a little different if you are swapping leads, versus leading in blocks, versus if one person is leading everything, but I say it only to point out that there is some necessary degree of expediency involved in a clothing switchover in cold-wx climbing, whereas for hunting it’s a bit more relaxed and there’s no real benefit to multitasking while you are dealing with your clothing, so the climbing corollary breaks down a bit at that point. But it’s in large part the reason for many people choosing a synthetic jacket for climbing and 99% of the time wearing puffy over outer layer, because it’s really hard to be time-efficient while removing an outer layer, adding a puffy, then replacing the outer layer over the puffy, all while your climbing partner is freezing their ass off down at the previous belay waiting for you. Whereas for hunting, there is much less time pressure for any clothing switch over, because no one else is waiting on you before they can move safely. It allows a bit more flexibility, and if you have the opportunity to put a puffy on under a shell it might make more sense to do so in order to keep it dry and allow you a bit lighter weight, more packable jacket. It seems odd to me to only do one or the other, over or under, when the obvious answer is that sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn’t, and when it doesn’t matter, of course I’m going to do the easier quicker option.

Anyway, this extremely important topic has me reminiscing about some glorious type-2 fun from decades past.