Positional shooting input wanted from S2H attenders

Schmo

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Hey guys,
I was hoping for some input on a shooting position from Form, or someone who has attended the S2H class. Where I hunt mule deer, my most common shot will be seated. If time is not short, then a good bipod/tripod up front, and the pack as a rear rest make a super solid position. However, I know almost everyone dumps bipods/tripods after going through the class. So, if I need to make a 450 yard seated shot, what does my position and support need to look like? Pics are great. Thanks!
 
Hey guys,
I was hoping for some input on a shooting position from Form, or someone who has attended the S2H class. Where I hunt mule deer, my most common shot will be seated. If time is not short, then a good bipod/tripod up front, and the pack as a rear rest make a super solid position. However, I know almost everyone dumps bipods/tripods after going through the class. So, if I need to make a 450 yard seated shot, what does my position and support need to look like? Pics are great. Thanks!
Seated with adequate time, I'm generally trying to hug my backpack for rear support and get a height-flexible support up front. That's usually a pair of hiking sticks with the loops crossed over to create a sling. I angle the feet away from me, handles towards me, and adjust splay with my off hand to gross control elevation. Fine elevation control with off hand sliding the handles forward or aft.

If I was already glassing then I've got a tripod and bag/table out. That makes a solid enough front rest that I will sometimes sneak my off hand under the stock over the backpack prone-style and make elevation changes that way. Elevation gods need to smile on you though. Sticks are faster/more flexible and very low wobble zone when set up as above.

Finally, a seated height bipod with decently fast controls coupled with a hugged backpack and off hand under stock is somewhere in the middle. For example @mxgsfmdpx who hasn't been to a class but is well known to us, prefers a tall spartan for this purpose. You might also use a Hatch or Tricer the same way. Try to avoid getting sucked into nailing the elevation with leg height and instead get more comfortable using the backpack rear and your own skeletal posture to achieve a wider dynamic range of stable elevations.

-J
 
I'm a tall bipod, tripod rear guy. But I practice it a lot. Using it in matches where you are timed makes you very fast at getting it setup. Even my quick and dirty tripod rear setup is still more solid than me using a backpack front or rear.

How steep is it where you are? Can you shoot across using a tall bipod in front without it being too awkward?

An issue I've run into multiple times is where I get setup, then the animal will step into cover. At that point its a guessing game if you have enough time to build a more comfortable position, or if they will pop out into the open and you just tough a somewhat awkward position that your straining your body in.

I'm sure I argue with Form about this multiple times a year. It's what I practice, so its fast, for me.

Ken
 
I haven’t attended S2H yet (I am going next June), but I have done a lot of field shooting. I’d say 60% of the deer I have killed have been from a hasty seated position (elbows on thighs), 30% offhand, and 10% bipod prone.

As I spend more time on Rokslide and shoot more, I have changed a few things around. I am getting rid of my Harris 9-13” bipods and replacing them with a Spartan Javelin Lite TL (7.25-9.5”) for prone shooting. This can be carried on my LBV along with my Jellyfish. I also have the Molinator attached to my assault pack for when I have that with me.

I also ordered a Trigger Stick medium for seated position shots when I have the time to deploy it, but prone shots are impossible. I have a grenade pouch on my LBV for rear support, or can use my assault pack.

I won’t ever be using a tripod.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”
 
Thanks guys! I do have a Hatch bipod. I will say, besides a fixed Spartan, it’s probably the fastest bipod on the market. Definitely faster than a Tricer. The other thing I like about it, is it’s a quick-attach to a pic rail, and not a tension knob, so very fast on and off the gun. The leg locks are tension locks, and not twist locks. So to lengthen the legs, you just pull down on them.

Seems like with my Hatch and my pack for the rear rest, it’s a good compromise for great stability
 
I'm a tall bipod, tripod rear guy. But I practice it a lot. Using it in matches where you are timed makes you very fast at getting it setup. Even my quick and dirty tripod rear setup is still more solid than me using a backpack front or rear.

How steep is it where you are? Can you shoot across using a tall bipod in front without it being too awkward?

An issue I've run into multiple times is where I get setup, then the animal will step into cover. At that point its a guessing game if you have enough time to build a more comfortable position, or if they will pop out into the open and you just tough a somewhat awkward position that your straining your body in.

I'm sure I argue with Form about this multiple times a year. It's what I practice, so its fast, for me.

Ken

The main point is practice what you like. I don’t disagree with anything above.

If you adopt Form’s approach and practice, you’ll be ahead of the game. It’s solid and based on fundamentals. It also follows the KISS principles.

Like Ken, I also fall outside with the style of “the Form basics”. My disagreement diminishes nothing about the shooting techniques he teaches. The point Ken makes about better stability is my experience too. Also, once deployed, if the animal moves, adjustment is fast for me.

The overall versatility I get out of a tripod and the stability it gives me in nearly any terrain or position means one solution to practice. “Fear the man who practices everything with one tripod, he probably knows how to use it…”

If we had 10 of the gnarliest shooting positions, I think my par time would be as fast or faster on average. I have one shooting tool, the tripod which can be used effectively in nearly every position. I have practiced and played with using many of the techniques. I have bought and played with lots of gimmicks. Ultimately, the inverted leg tripod won in every position.

My shooting process is the same every time: I visualize where my front support needs to be, determine method for rear support depending on distance, and then manipulate my tripod into position.

The terrain under the tripod determines the leg angle and height. Steep with mountain falling away gets two legs down and one leg back. Steep with mountain going up gets two legs back one forward. Steep angle on side hill, two back with one leg long the other short. The inverted leg locks makes it fast and simple to adjust mostly by feel, so I can keep my eyes up on the critter.

I don’t know of any other tool that can manage each of those with maximum stability.

Personal preference creates variations. If a solution gets it done in wide range of applications and situations, it isn’t wrong.

When it comes to tripod shooting, there is a lot of bad advice and commentary out there, which is not representative of my experience and style.

This is how I shoot seated.

 
If someone can explain how I can make trekking poles and a pack give me the wobble of a tripod I’m all ears. Would love not to carry the thing this year.

I have tried, I can shoot near prone groups from my tripod, 2-3” with trekking poles and pack, and it requires me to fit the equipment to my body, where I can make about any tripod height work with just moving my body. On top of that tripod rear off about anything I can find is an even more stable option. I’m having a hard time making the trekking poles work to what I am used to off a tripod.

I wish the class was an option but time commitment and money means would be sitting out a hunting season away from home.
 
If someone can explain how I can make trekking poles and a pack give me the wobble of a tripod I’m all ears. Would love not to carry the thing this year.

I have tried, I can shoot near prone groups from my tripod, 2-3” with trekking poles and pack, and it requires me to fit the equipment to my body, where I can make about any tripod height work with just moving my body. On top of that tripod rear off about anything I can find is an even more stable option. I’m having a hard time making the trekking poles work to what I am used to off a tripod.

I wish the class was an option but time commitment and money means would be sitting out a hunting season away from home.

It’s not super easy at first, but the trekking poles work. I tried goofing with attachments, straps, etc but found grabbing the polea work with my hand size. One problem for me is adjustment is too slow, so it comes down to the angle to adapt to height.

I am like you, I don’t want to compromise stability so I carry the tripod and find other ways to ditch weight. After confidently building tripod positions with rear support that are as solid as prone, I left the bipod at home.

This is near prone stability for me.

 
Thanks guys! I do have a Hatch bipod. I will say, besides a fixed Spartan, it’s probably the fastest bipod on the market. Definitely faster than a Tricer. The other thing I like about it, is it’s a quick-attach to a pic rail, and not a tension knob, so very fast on and off the gun. The leg locks are tension locks, and not twist locks. So to lengthen the legs, you just pull down on them.

Seems like with my Hatch and my pack for the rear rest, it’s a good compromise for great stability
I remembered that I picked up a Hatch recently, and am impressed with it. But, I doubt I will take it out.

I like to have gear to see how others live, lol. Seriously, tripods don’t fit with everyone’s style, and I wanted it to have options when demonstrating styles and techniques.

Front bipod/tripod support with rear support by hugging the pack like you mentioned and NSI described is quick and effective. It’s what I show as the quickest to learn and implement for shooters new to it.
 
If someone can explain how I can make trekking poles and a pack give me the wobble of a tripod I’m all ears. Would love not to carry the thing this year.

I have tried, I can shoot near prone groups from my tripod, 2-3” with trekking poles and pack, and it requires me to fit the equipment to my body, where I can make about any tripod height work with just moving my body. On top of that tripod rear off about anything I can find is an even more stable option. I’m having a hard time making the trekking poles work to what I am used to off a tripod.

I wish the class was an option but time commitment and money means would be sitting out a hunting season away from home.

Hug the bag side of hunting pack to your body wrap your arms and legs around it like you are a monkey holding onto your mommy. Rifle rear sits on top snug into your “shoulder”The front sticks should be extremely stable w the loops over lapping , rifle slides in the cradle created by the loops.
 
If someone can explain how I can make trekking poles and a pack give me the wobble of a tripod I’m all ears. Would love not to carry the thing this year.

I have tried, I can shoot near prone groups from my tripod, 2-3” with trekking poles and pack, and it requires me to fit the equipment to my body, where I can make about any tripod height work with just moving my body. On top of that tripod rear off about anything I can find is an even more stable option. I’m having a hard time making the trekking poles work to what I am used to off a tripod.

I wish the class was an option but time commitment and money means would be sitting out a hunting season away from home.

It’s not a perfect position, it’s a fastish stable enough out to X yardage position
 
Try to avoid getting sucked into nailing the elevation with leg height and instead get more comfortable using the backpack rear and your own skeletal posture to achieve a wider dynamic range of stable elevations.
This is the crux of the biscuit as my climbing buddies would say.
 
It’s not a perfect position, it’s a fastish stable enough out to X yardage position
That’s my issue with it, it’s a 300 yard position for me and about as fast as the tripod. I can’t justify not taking my tripod along at that point. At 300 I can rip out the tripod and shoot off a leg if I really wanted to.

I guess im always looking to make the most stable position possible as fast as possible. If I can get a seated or kneeling position with no wobble I can focus on the trigger and not my .4m wobble.

I would like to make it work. I like being flexible. My goal was to be able to not bring my tripod this year but after a few weeks with the rimfire and trekking poles/pack it was obvious I wasn’t going to get near the wobble I can get off a tripod.
 
That’s my issue with it, it’s a 300 yard position for me and about as fast as the tripod. I can’t justify not taking my tripod along at that point. At 300 I can rip out the tripod and shoot off a leg if I really wanted to.

I guess im always looking to make the most stable position possible as fast as possible. If I can get a seated or kneeling position with no wobble I can focus on the trigger and not my .4m wobble.

I would like to make it work. I like being flexible. My goal was to be able to not bring my tripod this year but after a few weeks with the rimfire and trekking poles/pack it was obvious I wasn’t going to get near the wobble I can get off a tripod.
That’s basically my issue with it, is that it’s for limited distance. Having a quick-attach Hatch bipod with me allows for a super stable system.

In the last two seasons in Montana, my shots on animals have been 370, 360, 196, 423, 353, and 440 yards. Without a solid front support it feels very unstable.
 
That’s my issue with it, it’s a 300 yard position for me and about as fast as the tripod. I can’t justify not taking my tripod along at that point. At 300 I can rip out the tripod and shoot off a leg if I really wanted to.

I guess im always looking to make the most stable position possible as fast as possible. If I can get a seated or kneeling position with no wobble I can focus on the trigger and not my .4m wobble.

I would like to make it work. I like being flexible. My goal was to be able to not bring my tripod this year but after a few weeks with the rimfire and trekking poles/pack it was obvious I wasn’t going to get near the wobble I can get off a tripod.

I’ve used it quite successfully and confidently out to 450 on elk, but that’s a big target. I’m not particularly fast w it, but much faster than getting a tripod out and legs adjusted. Add moving positions and resetting up it is WAY faster. Getting the trekking poles crossed is the slowest part.
 
Hey guys,
I was hoping for some input on a shooting position from Form, or someone who has attended the S2H class. Where I hunt mule deer, my most common shot will be seated. If time is not short, then a good bipod/tripod up front, and the pack as a rear rest make a super solid position. However, I know almost everyone dumps bipods/tripods after going through the class. So, if I need to make a 450 yard seated shot, what does my position and support need to look like? Pics are great. Thanks!
Why don't you PM Form? Sounds like he's the one you want to hear from. Good advice from all however. I haven't had an S2H class, however a set of Underwood shooting sticks from a seated position is good to 400 to 450 for me. The positioning and balance is up to what you determine from actual shooting not necessarily what someone else can tell you about, IMO.
 
Why don't you PM Form? Sounds like he's the one you want to hear from.
If Form wanted to comment in this thread, that would have been great. However, I know he probably gets tons of PM's and I didn't want to bug him. Also, I knew that the highly competent shooters and class attendees would most likely give me the same info.
 
, I know almost everyone dumps bipods/tripods after going through the class.
It sounds like you've developed something that works for you and you'd be insane to dump what works just because the cool kids are doing it, especially this close to season.

Do what works. Keep doing what has worked in the past unless you have lots of time to figure out new things. It's good and wise to be open minded when people offer you new ideas - and those ideas may well be awesome - but with deer season a month out don't dump what works in favor of what might work but you haven't mastered yet.

Also - if you want a more stable tripod setup, from seated, grab two 30" carbon arrow shafts and rubberband the ends together to form a very light, adjustable rear support cradle. Weight, about two ounces. Cost, about ten bucks.

ETA: And the above is in no way intended as a slight of anyone's techniques or classes or whatever. It's just life advice.
 
I’d be curious to see someone proficient in either style doing a timed drill.

I tried a few but it’s evident I am not proficient off the poles.
1000%

I think watching timed drills of any of this is super helpful. As a former athlete who greatly benefitted from watching myself on video, I’ll say theres a wide variety of ways to use it and benefits to take from it, both watching yourself and watching others. I think that would make a fantastic training thread, ie post a video of a timed drill of the shooter (not the target) focusing on setup, with the actual target/result being part of it (the measureable outcome) but not necessarily the focus.
 
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