Pole Barn build

[Balderdash]

Engineer who inspects failed structures here. Make sure that your poles are sufficiently embedded in the earth that they don't sway sideways under wind loads, etc. Also, protect your poles from rot the best you can - they are holding up your entire building (give me the willies a bit).

I've done residential construction for 30 + years. For me, there will be no wood underground. In this area - upper great lakes - it just doesn't last.

Most pole building companies around this area are using concrete piers these days.

 

[Iowafarmer]

Any Amish in your area around here they roll their own steel and have crews to put em up usually a little cheaper just gotta make sure you get a good crew like anyone else

 

[Tod osier]

Adding a Pole Barn to our property. Primarily for storage, but hoping to add a small work shop within and a small in-law suite (radiant floor heat) as well. Any advice or suggestions for the build would be appreciated.


I spoke with Morton Barnes and was quoted 240k for the structure below. Didn’t include any of the built in living space, electric or plumbing… He said to budget another 100-140k. I know they have a solid reputation, but that seems absurd.

MQS quoted me $73,540.00. Which only includes the materials.

Plan on doing the dirt work and slab prep myself. Ideally we’re trying to do this under 200k.

Free Standing Building installed on your level site
36' width x 56' length x 16' inside height
Roof System: 4' o/c trusses Pitch: 4/12Loading: 60-5-5 standard
Walls: 8' o/c TR laminated load-bearing columns with uplift protection
Siding: 29 gauge steel (Undecided Color)
Trim Color (Undecided Color)
Roofing Type: 29 Gauge Painted Steel (Undecided Color)
Overhangs: 12" Boxed on 2-eaves & 2-gables (Undecided Color) soffit and fascia
Insulation/Underlayment: 2317 sqft of Vapor Barrier on Roof
Insulation/Underlayment: 3500 sqft of House Wrap on Sides
2 - 12 X 12 steel-backed ins. (Undecided Color) Overhead Door(s)
1 - 3' X 6'8" Steel Flush Entry Door(s)
6 - 4X3 Slider Insulated Window(s)
1 - Crew Travel
Delivery to Zone 5

HOME PAGE - MQS

Metal Buildings in Washington, Montana, Wyoming, for all your building needs. Boasting post frame building in Spokane and Billings.

mqsbarn.com

https://mortonbuildings.com/projects/brents-hobby-building

I just put money down on our second Morton, I'll add a couple thoughts.

We put up a simple 30x50 with 10' walls 4 1/2 in 12 pitch nearly 20 years back. The building is bare bones with 14 and 16' wide doors in the ends and 2 walk doors, no concrete. Was 27 dollars per square foot. They build a tight, clean building. We did the site prep to save a few bucks. The building looks new today, still shiny not a problem with it. I like everything about how they build.

Our new building is 48' on the gable end and 40' deep on 14' walls with a raised chord truss to give enough height to get a 12' wide by 14' tall door, 4 1/2 in 12 pitch roof. I was looking for bare bones for vehicle storage, but a building that looked nice enough to be close to the house. 2 10x10 doors in addition to the big door and a walk door WITH concrete floor. We will do the site prep again. Was $65 dollars per square foot in the end without site prep. Concrete was 21-25K (not sure how it played out in the end, it is included in the price). This is more expensive than I thought going into it, but that is a good price in the location we are building, I'm confident.

I got a quote from Cleary and it was quite a bit higher (20K ish) and I don't think their buildings are as nice and the Morton quote was a more finished building for this particular build (things like electric openers on all the overhead doors, which Cleary did not have in the quote). I'd have been happy with a Cleary, but would not pay more for one.

I talked to smaller local builders and saw all kinds of stuff that turned me off. Really poor skills or poor finish all the way to prices 50-75% more per square foot for a bare bones structure with what I'd call marginal quality finish. There are a lot of guys that wanted to offer quotes without much experience.

The crew matters as well. Out first crew was a young slam blam crew, but they still did a real nice job. They rushed through a couple things, but Morton held their feet to the fire to redo it right (things like putting a walk doow where they thought it should be, not where the plans said).

 

[ThorM465]

I will never understand the fascination of pole barns If you’re going to pour concrete. I don’t see any how it’s any cheaper, and certainly, not better, than a stick framed building. Some please explain it to me! Especially for the prices quoted above. They do get them up quick, I will say that.

Quicker and requires less framing materials for the same if not more strength. Less materials equals better insulation and less labor.

I get it if you aren’t pouring concrete and just sinking posts into the ground. Anything outside of that seems like a waste. But, there are YouTube videos sensationalizing it.

Posts should never be sunk into the ground.

That’s just it, you have to frame twice. And incur twice the cost of material and labor. When you could have just stick framed from the beginning. If it’s going to be unfinished and no concrete from the beginning then it makes sense as far as cost savings.

Not if you're building it correctly you don't

Engineer who inspects failed structures here. Make sure that your poles are sufficiently embedded in the earth that they don't sway sideways under wind loads, etc. Also, protect your poles from rot the best you can - they are holding up your entire building (give me the willies a bit).

Put your post deep in the Earthy, but also protect them from rot? Do not put your posts in the Earth! You should be setting brackets to hold the posts.

OP I wouldn't touch a kit. Find a local builder that knows what they're doing.

 

[Jon Boy]

Not if you're building it correctly you don't

How? I’m genuinely curious? If you’re building off of a slab and doing walls 16’ or less I don’t see how materials are cheaper, construction time is faster, and why any strength gain is an advantage, when a 2x6 framed building is plenty strong and certainly won’t be blowing over or settling?

 

[TaperPin]

Being in the nicer than average construction business out west, we’ve never built pole barns but work alongside guys that do. I’ve also had access to engineers and architects who work with buried structural wood and it’s always been fun to pick their brains about what works and what doesn’t.

Pole barns are quick to erect - nothing can touch it in that respect, other than the much more expensive SIP construction. In high wind areas the shell can be put up quickly during good conditions, and that can save additional time. Quick building in the fall can save another 4 to 6 months if it can be dried in before winter weather brings exterior framing to a stand still. A thick layer of sprayed in foam can make it very well insulated and draft free.

They are also very forgiving if the project is spread over a longer time period. There is no way a stick framed structure, requiring deep foundations, can touch the low up front cost of a basic non insulated shell.

Pole barn construction can last almost indefinitely, but only if it’s done well. Why does it seem so mysterious as to what allows buried poles to last, and why do discussions glance over it? Buried wood has been fully engineered and tested long ago. Poles aren’t all created equal - using crappy poles that haven’t been properly treated, or that have been in the ground for half a century before being pulled and sold to the public, is asking for trouble. When new poles are used it’s always a red flag, because it’s so easy to cheat on the treatment and most guys don’t know the difference - my first question for guys working on wood foundations has always been how easy it was to source the wood - if it wasn’t a special order, it’s probably treated to a lesser standard.

How the poles are buried makes a huge difference - out west there’s a lot of sandy gravely soils that drain well, and 1/2 mile away on a hillside there may be clay layers that constantly transport water down the hill all year. Using crappy poles on a clay filled hillside will rot them quickly. Most guys backfill around the poles with the same dirt that came out of the hole - works fine, but reduces the lifespan near the surface. Poles are no different than fence posts - they rot near the surface.

Cost per cubic foot of insulation can make or break the economics of a nice thick layer of spray foam on the shell. Not all communities have a good spray foam installer, and having someone travel a long distance becomes expensive quickly, if they will do it at all. Never guess at any costs, or use averages, especially in rural areas.

Personally, I’d use a local builder who’s been in business a long time and takes time to detail how posts are set and how the ground is kept dry. Joe blow won’t care because cheap poles and problems caused by poor moisture management wont show up for ten to 20 years. Choose a building site that doesn’t have a clay layer, or use a different type of construction - metal beam construction can have many of the same benefits in any soil type, with an even longer lifespan, but higher cost.

 

[406flyfish]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. We’re not opposed to other builds than Pole Barns. We assumed it would be the most economical option. Any recommendation on builder near Ennis, MT would be appreciated. Reached out to a few so far.

 

[grfox92]

I've said this every time pole barn threads come up.

If you are building something for storage, where you are parking equipment, storing hay or your RV, build a pole barn with a dirt or gravel floor.

If you are building something that you want a concrete floor in. You want interior work space or living space that will be climate controlled. You will be running plumbing or electrical and insulating....
Conventionally frame it 16 OC, set your roof trusses 24 OC and sheet it the walls with 7/16 and the roof with 5/8.

You are saving no money erecting a pole barn only to turn around and have to frame interior walls to accommodate, sheet rock, insulation, plumbing and electrical ect.

For insulation get a quote on blowing in cellulose behind Visqueen reinforced plastic. IMO this is close to as effective e as spray foam and a fraction of the price.

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

 

[grfox92]

^^^
Well, you won’t get the 16’ sidewall height with stick built.

Typically pole barns have metal sheet siding installed vertical. That means the girts are horizontal. Unlike stick built when the walls are typically built vertical and siding is installed horizontally.

Getting it done quick means a lot to the owner.

Why don't you get 16" sidewalls with stick framed?

I've built 6 with 16' walls in the last 3 years.

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[TaperPin]

Why don't you get 16" sidewalls with stick framed?

I've built 6 with 16' walls in the last 3 years.

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Yep - you’re right about that. There are a ton of tall garages with everything from 2x6, 2x8, and 2x10 studs.

 

[cnelk]

Why don't you get 16" sidewalls with stick framed?

I've built 6 with 16' walls in the last 3 years.

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Of course you can.
How about taller?

What are you using for shear walls? LSLs?

 

[grfox92]

Of course you can.
How about taller?

What are you using for shear walls? LSLs?

Up to 16 foot is 2x6 and have to be picky with selection. Anything over 16' is LSL. We did one 18' this year with LSL. I didn't enjoy working woth them.

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[Silveroddo]

That price is insulated with concrete and infloor heat installed?

This is purely for comparisons sake, I see you're in MT and these guys are in MN. They've been around forever I've never heard anything bad about them so they're a good local baseline for me.
Theres's a price list for uninsulated stick frame buildings that I'm assuming are slab on grade builds with a thickened edge. Anything with a frost footing I'm assuming would be considerably more.

Deluxe Storage Building | Merickel Lumber | Wadena, MN

merickellumber.com

 

[cnelk]

Up to 16 foot is 2x6 and have to be picky with selection. Anything over 16' is LSL. We did one 18' this year with LSL. I didn't enjoy working woth them.

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

So you’re not building a shear wall.

Another advantage of pole barns is the ‘hinge effect’ is eliminated

 

[Jon Boy]

The OP mentioned 16’ side walls and a finished concrete floor, as well as interior finishes . Again, with those parameters there’s no way a pole barn is greatly cheaper, or better. With out those parameters there’s no doubt some major cost savings using pole constructions.

 

[JoeDirt]

Add some nice aggregate to your concrete and polish it. I will never not do slab on grade with polished concrete flooring. Its the most durable and budget friendly over epoxy or buying flooring.

 

[bowhuntercoop]

In laws are building a “barndo” as we speak. I did the site prep and all the plumbing for them. I think the finished sq ft cost is around 135 a sq. Most stock builders in this part of South Carolina are gettin 250 dollars per sq.

Very impressed with BarndoCo outta Spartanburg SC. If I ever build another house will go this route.

I also have a 40x60 Olympia metal shop at my house for my bow shop and diesel shop. Love it, but I would never pay the current cost they want for one.

 

[StuckInTheEast]

Being in the nicer than average construction business out west, we’ve never built pole barns but work alongside guys that do. I’ve also had access to engineers and architects who work with buried structural wood and it’s always been fun to pick their brains about what works and what doesn’t.

Pole barns are quick to erect - nothing can touch it in that respect, other than the much more expensive SIP construction. In high wind areas the shell can be put up quickly during good conditions, and that can save additional time. Quick building in the fall can save another 4 to 6 months if it can be dried in before winter weather brings exterior framing to a stand still. A thick layer of sprayed in foam can make it very well insulated and draft free.

They are also very forgiving if the project is spread over a longer time period. There is no way a stick framed structure, requiring deep foundations, can touch the low up front cost of a basic non insulated shell.

Pole barn construction can last almost indefinitely, but only if it’s done well. Why does it seem so mysterious as to what allows buried poles to last, and why do discussions glance over it? Buried wood has been fully engineered and tested long ago. Poles aren’t all created equal - using crappy poles that haven’t been properly treated, or that have been in the ground for half a century before being pulled and sold to the public, is asking for trouble. When new poles are used it’s always a red flag, because it’s so easy to cheat on the treatment and most guys don’t know the difference - my first question for guys working on wood foundations has always been how easy it was to source the wood - if it wasn’t a special order, it’s probably treated to a lesser standard.

How the poles are buried makes a huge difference - out west there’s a lot of sandy gravely soils that drain well, and 1/2 mile away on a hillside there may be clay layers that constantly transport water down the hill all year. Using crappy poles on a clay filled hillside will rot them quickly. Most guys backfill around the poles with the same dirt that came out of the hole - works fine, but reduces the lifespan near the surface. Poles are no different than fence posts - they rot near the surface.

Cost per cubic foot of insulation can make or break the economics of a nice thick layer of spray foam on the shell. Not all communities have a good spray foam installer, and having someone travel a long distance becomes expensive quickly, if they will do it at all. Never guess at any costs, or use averages, especially in rural areas.

Personally, I’d use a local builder who’s been in business a long time and takes time to detail how posts are set and how the ground is kept dry. Joe blow won’t care because cheap poles and problems caused by poor moisture management wont show up for ten to 20 years. Choose a building site that doesn’t have a clay layer, or use a different type of construction - metal beam construction can have many of the same benefits in any soil type, with an even longer lifespan, but higher cost.

Great points most pros dont even consider and most inspectors overlook...there are codes for in ground structural piles innregard to pressure treating spec.
If your putting wood in the ground make sure its properly treated...you won't find the right stuff at any big box place.
I had a 30+ year 'Pro' put a 40x60 up for me about 7 years back...had half the posts set and made him pull them all out. He got cheap stuff from big box stores. wasn't rated for ground contact much less inground structural piling. He was actually greatful i called it out. 30 years in business and he just figured pressure treated was pressure treated...
That being said, he built a solid, square building and many of his over 20 years old still up in my area ...but I've checked a few and found post rot due to wrong lumber.
Those prices seem insanely high to me. I know it was 7 years back but materials have come back to reality a bit from few years back. My 40x60 with wainscoting. Three 14x12 doors. 2 man doors 6 windows, 2' overhangs, 14' ceilings and gutters was right over $60k... the quotes I got from the big names were all over $100k for same.
Shop local.

 

[rabbithuntr]

When we build our shop we were gonna go 36’ but end up going longer and 30’. Trusses go way up in price over 30’

 

[TaperPin]

Great points most pros dont even consider and most inspectors overlook...there are codes for in ground structural piles innregard to pressure treating spec.
If your putting wood in the ground make sure its properly treated...you won't find the right stuff at any big box place.
I had a 30+ year 'Pro' put a 40x60 up for me about 7 years back...had half the posts set and made him pull them all out. He got cheap stuff from big box stores. wasn't rated for ground contact much less inground structural piling. He was actually greatful i called it out. 30 years in business and he just figured pressure treated was pressure treated...
That being said, he built a solid, square building and many of his over 20 years old still up in my area ...but I've checked a few and found post rot due to wrong lumber.
Those prices seem insanely high to me. I know it was 7 years back but materials have come back to reality a bit from few years back. My 40x60 with wainscoting. Three 14x12 doors. 2 man doors 6 windows, 2' overhangs, 14' ceilings and gutters was right over $60k... the quotes I got from the big names were all over $100k for same.
Shop local.

That’s good you caught it. Sounds like a nice space.