Painless Load Prep (Precursor to Painless Load Development)

[huntnful]

Have you done any testing comparing precision between a budget versus premium brass brand? I know a lot of guys are buying premium brass to get longer life out of it, but I don't think I've ever seen a test where someone showed a measurable improvement in precision by using Lapua versus Starline.

I’ve had a lot of Peterson 300 Norma brass that had such inconsistent necks (I didn’t know it at the time) it caused me to go down the annealing rabbit hole and buy an AMP and all that bullshit thinking my necks were hardening inconsistently.

Turns out brass was just shitty. Switched to Lapua and all my tension inconsistencies went away, groups shrunk and I sold the annealer.

Peterson still didn’t shoot super terrible, likely not a concern for just killing something under any circumstances. But it did shoot worse. A catalyst of inconsistent necks though. I’ve seen it several times with several guns and different brass.

If the budget brass has consistent neck thickness throughout, I’d wager you couldn’t ever shoot the difference. Peterson is “top end” and it was certainly nothing special at all.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’ve had a lot of Peterson 300 Norma brass that had such inconsistent necks (I didn’t know it at the time) it caused me to go down the annealing rabbit hole and buy an AMP and all that bullshit thinking my necks were hardening inconsistently.

Turns out brass was just shitty. Switched to Lapua and all my tension inconsistencies went away, groups shrunk and I sold the annealer.

Peterson still didn’t shoot super terrible, likely not a concern for just killing something under any circumstances. But it did shoot worse. A catalyst of inconsistent necks though. I’ve seen it several times with several guns and different brass.

If the budget brass has consistent neck thickness throughout, I’d wager you couldn’t ever shoot the difference. Peterson is “top end” and it was certainly nothing special at all.

Ha. ADG overall is probably my least “favorite”. They produce good to great brass most times, but I have had more issues in general with them than any other. Actually, I just really don’t like “hard, tough” brass. Just have more BS with the “super” brass than “soft” Federal or Winchester.

 

[huntnful]

Ha. ADG overall is probably my least “favorite”. They produce good to great brass most times, but I have had more issues in general with them than any other. Actually, I just really don’t like “hard, tough” brass. Just have more BS with the “super” brass than “soft” Federal or Winchester.

I agree. I’ve had lots of inconsistencies with their stuff as well. I shot a lot it across five 28 Noslers and how the gun shot literally depended on if you “got a decent lot of brass this time”.

I definitely don’t think “good” brass is the catalyst to shooting good. Just CONSISTENT brass. And Lapua does seem to be extremely consistent. So it’s just another thing I don’t have to think about. Spent a lot of time troubling shooting things, that really just boiled down to inconsistent brass.

My current lot of 7 PRC ADG has such thick necks they don’t even fully open up in the chamber. You can still force a bullet into a fired case neck after it’s been ejected. But it shoots well enough that I didn’t feel like turning the necks. But still, WAY thicker than the previous couple of lots I had.

 

[mtnbound]

Have you done any testing comparing precision between a budget versus premium brass brand? I know a lot of guys are buying premium brass to get longer life out of it, but I don't think I've ever seen a test where someone showed a measurable improvement in precision by using Lapua versus Starline.

I tried some of the premium brass makers, but as Form said, I could not see any performance or case life increases to justify the cost, so I use Starline and Hornady.

 

[tall]

Brass growth is more a product of how you are sizing than case design.

I’m here to learn. How do you size in a way that reduces brass growth?

 

[Formidilosus]

I agree. I’ve had lots of inconsistencies with their stuff as well. I shot a lot it across five 28 Noslers and how the gun shot literally depended on if you “got a decent lot of brass this time”.

I definitely don’t think “good” brass is the catalyst to shooting good. Just CONSISTENT brass. And Lapua does seem to be extremely consistent. So it’s just another thing I don’t have to think about. Spent a lot of time troubling shooting things, that really just boiled down to inconsistent brass.

Lapua is my preference for “good” brass by far.

My current lot of 7 PRC ADG has such thick necks they don’t even fully open up in the chamber. You can still force a bullet into a fired case neck after it’s been ejected. But it shoots well enough that I didn’t feel like turning the necks. But still, WAY thicker than the previous couple of lots I had.

Had the same issue with a couple different versions.

 

[BULLBLASTER]

I’m here to learn. How do you size in a way that reduces brass growth?

Size just enough to make it fit. Lots of room for brass expanding to fit the chamber makes it grow.

 

[Formidilosus]

Size just enough to make it fit. Lots of room for brass expanding to fit the chamber makes it grow.

And that’s also a good way to get rough chambering and stuck cases in adverse conditions.

 

[BULLBLASTER]

And that’s also a good way to get rough chambering and stuck cases in adverse conditions.

Ok

 

[philcox]

Brass growth is more a product of how you are sizing than case design.

Care to expand? You mean "don't use FL, only neck sizer" or something else. Pretty vague.

 

[wind gypsy]

Care to expand? You mean "don't use FL, only neck sizer" or something else. Pretty vague.

See post #27.

There's a balance. If I try to bump shoulders 0.001" i'm bound to have some rounds that are tough to close the bolt on. Bump around 0.003" with a FL sizer and the bolt closes into battery like butter with all of them and you're not overworking the cases too much. Bump em 0.008" and you're overworking brass and will need to trim sooner.

 

[philcox]

I currently have the RCBS FL X-Die for the 223 and 65CM (no neck bushing), and standard RCBS FL for the 6CM (no neck bushing). I am just going to use them and run the "hard to chamber" line in the sand. Brass is:
- 65CM: Lapua SRP, Peterson LRP
- 6CM: Starline LRP, Sig LRP
- 223: Starline, Lapua, and AAC

I'll see how it goes going forward.

 

[BULLBLASTER]

I use standard full length dies and lower the die until the case chambers easily and no more. Usually .002-.003 bump, but I dont bother measuring.

 

[mlevimadden]

Thanks @huntnful and @Formidilosus for sharing your experience with the various brands of brass. I have yet to venture out of the "cheap" brass realm with hornady, norma, and sig. I was debating trying one of the "premium" brands in my 6 PRC build with having to go through the work of necking down brass, maybe I'll end up sticking with the Hornady. I appreciate the knowledge shared!

 

[huntnful]

Another thing when you’re sizing the initial piece of brass to get a proper shoulder bump (or just making it fit in your chamber), you should use a new piece each time you’re adjusting the die. If you keep resizing the same piece, and just bumping it further and further and further until it’s correct, it’ll actually be much harder and have more spring back.

So when you grab another piece, you’ll actually bump it more than that initial piece that you spent all that time setting up

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Adg 300 win mag was the worst brass I've ever used. The neck thickness varies circumferentially and was thin at the mouth/thick at the shoulder.

 

[philcox]

Another thing when you’re sizing the initial piece of brass to get a proper shoulder bump (or just making it fit in your chamber), you should use a new piece each time you’re adjusting the die. If you keep resizing the same piece, and just bumping it further and further and further until it’s correct, it’ll actually be much harder and have more spring back.

So when you grab another piece, you’ll actually bump it more than that initial piece that you spent all that time setting up

It is obvious I need a primer on this whole setup process.

 

[huntnful]

It is obvious I need a primer on this whole setup process.

Nah just start prepping and loading a bunch of shit and you’ll learn. I’ve ruined and thrown away $1000’s worth of brass lol. It’s just part of it. But also messed with a lot of cartridges, powders/bullets that didn’t have much data or guidance. A lot of fire forming, over pressuring, over sizing, under sizing & annealing mess ups. Lots of bullshit you don’t/won’t go through if you just keep it simple with your cartridge choices and reloading practices.

 

[Luked]

Ha. ADG overall is probably my least “favorite”. They produce good to great brass most times, but I have had more issues in general with them than any other. Actually, I just really don’t like “hard, tough” brass. Just have more BS with the “super” brass than “soft” Federal or Winchester.

So @Formidilosus for the budget guys like myself, of the "normal" brass such as Winchester, Federal, Hornaday and Starline.
Which would you chose to be good brass in your experience?

 

[Quandary]

I’ve had a lot of Peterson 300 Norma brass that had such inconsistent necks (I didn’t know it at the time) it caused me to go down the annealing rabbit hole and buy an AMP and all that bullshit thinking my necks were hardening inconsistently.

Turns out brass was just shitty. Switched to Lapua and all my tension inconsistencies went away, groups shrunk and I sold the annealer.

Peterson still didn’t shoot super terrible, likely not a concern for just killing something under any circumstances. But it did shoot worse. A catalyst of inconsistent necks though. I’ve seen it several times with several guns and different brass.

If the budget brass has consistent neck thickness throughout, I’d wager you couldn’t ever shoot the difference. Peterson is “top end” and it was certainly nothing special at all.

I have had the exact opposite experience with Peterson. 6.5PRC, 7PRC and 30-06 necked down to 25-06 or up to 35 Whelen has been great. I also have had great luck with Lapua in 6.5 Creed and 300PRC. Plus in a really hot load the Peterson and Lapua brass lasts a lot longer. Which is nice if you have a caliber for which you need to fire form, 25-06AI in my case, where the primer pockets only last 2 or 3 firings in lesser brass.

I actually enjoy proper brass treatment. To me the real focus is simplified load development. Modifying Form's process a bit the following works for me.

1. Load a pressure ladder test going up from a little below where the load data says the velocity you'd be happy with to a grain or two over max. Seat at .03 off the lands if magazine allows.

2. Shoot the ladder test. Stop when you hit pressure signs you are not comfortable with.

3. Load 10 with the powder charge in the middle of the best grouping of your ladder test.

4. If the 10 shot group is .75 MOA or better, done. If not move on to another bullet or powder.

I may be fooling myself into thinking this is a good process, but it works for me. Plus I want to do a pressure test anyway because I want to know where my max load is.