Painless Load Prep (Precursor to Painless Load Development)

[philcox]

Note: This is a summary, mostly for myself, but thought others might find it useful. It was new information to me within the last 48 hours ...

Painless Load Prep

While this might seem intuitively obvious to some folks, it was not to me. Here is what I have gleaned as the preparation precursor to "Painless load development":

1. If you start with new brass or factory ammo there is no need to tumble or trim brass for the reloads going forward.
   • Note this might mean that you only get five or six reloads out of brass for which you might get 10+ if you did trim.
2. Place 25 cases in a Ziploc gallon bag and spray them with one shot, zip it up and shake them *OR* lay the case on a flat surface- spray, roll them, spray. *OR* any other way you want to get cases lubed to resize
3. Decap & Resize
4. Get a used towel, and dump the brass on it and pat it or rub it to clean off some of the Case lube.
5. Prime the brass, then throw the powder and seat the bullet.
6. Go shoot
   • When the load is hard to chamber, you have a choice to throw that piece of brass away, or potentially resize it for another cycle set (1-6). If you decide to "trash vice trim" at this point, you may be 5-6 reloads, where a single trim may get you another 5+

Then can follow the steps outlined in https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/painless-load-development-mine.238400/

Summarized here:

1. Pick the bullet you want to shoot, and determine your max acceptable group size and minimum MV (required for step 8)
2. Pick decent brass (does not have to be premium) and good primer (CCI, Federal, etc.)
3. Load a near "book" max load (I just use book max)
4. Seat the bullet to 1) fit magazines, 2) just kiss the lands, or 3) seat the bullet so the boatail is at the shoulder/neck junction of the case ... figure which works best for you.
   • I use Option 1, as the Tikka mag is almost always the limiting factor.
5. Load one round and shoot it
6. Check for pressure (drop .5 grains if needed)
7. Load twenty
8. Group 10
   1. IF the group and MV is "good enough" (as determined in step 1, then true at distance ... YOU ARE DONE
9. If the group is not what you want, then:
   1. Drop charge by 1g, repeat step 7+
   2. Swap powders and repeat steps 3+
10. If that does not work, you have a couple choices
    1. Evaluate your "realistic group expectations" (and then re-evaluate past resutls)
    2. Evaluate bullet selection? Is it known for easy load dev? Pick one that is
    3. Get a new barrel

 

[jonnyviceroy]

I wish I could get myself to keep it this simple. I got that tinkering ‘tism that likes to make this way more difficult than it needs to be. But this write up is on point. Really all anyone would need.

 

[UnckleBob]

I think chamfering and deburring makes seating easier. I have a RCBS machine that speeds it up quite a bit.

I don't like leaving any lube on my brass after sizing.

• I usually run the brass through a wet tumbler (no pins) with Dawn for about 30 minutes. I don't think 30 minutes is a magic number. Mostly, I use the "when I remember" timing method.
• If it a really small batch, I use a little rubbing alcohol on a rag to get the lube off.

 

[mtnbound]

Note: This is a summary, mostly for myself, but thought others might find it useful. It was new information to me within the last 48 hours ...

Painless Load Prep

While this might seem intuitively obvious to some folks, it was not to me. Here is what I have gleaned as the preparation precursor to "Painless load development":

1. If you start with new brass or factory ammo there is no need to tumble or trim brass for the reloads going forward.
   • Note this might mean that you only get five or six reloads out of brass for which you might get 10+ if you did trim.
2. Place 25 cases in a Ziploc gallon bag and spray them with one shot, zip it up and shake them *OR* lay the case on a flat surface- spray, roll them, spray. *OR* any other way you want to get cases lubed to resize
3. Decap & Resize
4. Get a used towel, and dump the brass on it and pat it or rub it to clean off some of the Case lube.
5. Prime the brass, then throw the powder and seat the bullet.
6. Go shoot
   • When the load is hard to chamber, you have a choice to throw that piece of brass away, or potentially resize it for another cycle set (1-6). If you decide to "trash vice trim" at this point, you may be 5-6 reloads, where a single trim may get you another 5+

Then can follow the steps outlined in https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/painless-load-development-mine.238400/

Summarized here:

1. Pick the bullet you want to shoot, and determine your max acceptable group size and minimum MV (required for step 8)
2. Pick decent brass (does not have to be premium) and good primer (CCI, Federal, etc.)
3. Load a near "book" max load (I just use book max)
4. Seat the bullet to 1) fit magazines, 2) just kiss the lands, or 3) seat the bullet so the boatail is at the shoulder/neck junction of the case ... figure which works best for you.
   • I use Option 1, as the Tikka mag is almost always the limiting factor.
5. Load one round and shoot it
6. Check for pressure (drop .5 grains if needed)
7. Load twenty
8. Group 10
   1. IF the group and MV is "good enough" (as determined in step 1, then true at distance ... YOU ARE DONE
9. If the group is not what you want, then:
   1. Drop charge by 1g, repeat step 7+
   2. Swap powders and repeat steps 3+
10. If that does not work, you have a couple choices
    1. Evaluate your "realistic group expectations" (and then re-evaluate past resutls)
    2. Evaluate bullet selection? Is it known for easy load dev? Pick one that is
    3. Get a new barrel

My loading methods are similar:
Chamfer new brass, and lay them out on a towel. Spray the necks with Oneshot lube and let dry.
Prime, dump powder, and seat the bullet.
Set the loaded ammo on a towel, place another towel on top, and roll the ammo around to remove excess Oneshot.

For fired brass, I grab a couple handfuls and put them in a Ziploc bag, spray them with Oneshot cleaner and lube, and roll them around in the bag.
Once dry, they are sized, deprimed, primed, powder dumped, and bullet seated.
I do the same two-towel process to remove excess Oneshot and sorta clean the brass.

I don't have a trimmer, so if a case has difficulty chambering, I pitch it. On the last lot of 250, 223 cases, I have at least 6 reloads on them, and I have pitched a dozen or so, but most of those pitched were for other reasons than chamber issues.

I used to dread reloading, but these processes have saved me so much time that they've made it enjoyable, and I shoot more.

My load development is similar, except I load 3 rounds at 3 different powder amounts. I shoot them low to high and observe for pressure, accuracy, and velocity. If one of the three meets my goal, I load 20 and confirm. If none meet my goals, I evaluate the powder and bullet.

 

[Woolley Bugger]

Do I understand correctly that you don't clean brass between shots? Just spray with Oneshot? Do you spray the insides of the necks as well?

As for not trimming, I thought the concern with overly long necks wasn't just difficulty chambering but the neck extending too far into the chamber and causing dangerous pressure spikes. Is that not a real life concern? Or does difficulty chambering occur before the pressure spikes, so you have some warning?

 

[philcox]

Do I understand correctly that you don't clean brass between shots? Just spray with Oneshot? Do you spray the insides of the necks as well?

As for not trimming, I thought the concern with overly long necks wasn't just difficulty chambering but the neck extending too far into the chamber and causing dangerous pressure spikes. Is that not a real life concern? Or does difficulty chambering occur before the pressure spikes, so you have some warning?

I’d look to [mention]Formidilosus [/mention] for insight on the this. I have yet to follow this, doing my first set now …


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[philcox]

I don't have a trimmer, so if a case has difficulty chambering, I pitch it.

So, in this situation, you now have a piece of loaded ammo, that you go to chamber and it doesn’t fit, so you just set it aside and I’m assuming you pull the bullet save the powder, save the primer, and then chuck the case. Is that correct? If not, how are you determining whether it chambers or not before loading?


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[Mule3006Elk]

So, some will throw brass away simply d/t not wanting to do a trim. But, doing a trim you could get multiple additional reloads. I can see tossing the brass d/t cracked cases, blown primer pocket, or damage. Tossing a perfectly good case d/t case length, nuts.

I reload for 3 cartridges. 2 don't stretch but 1 does. I trim the one that does b/c it stretches 0.002 to 0.004 every firing. I'm a small volume reloader so it does take much time at all.
For a small volume reloader it doesn't make sense.

High volume reloaders may have a different perspective.

Interesting. Something I never thought about. Now I will. In particular when contemplating a new cartridge. It is easier to reload when dealing with a case that doesn't stretch. One less step.

 

[Nine Banger]

Take caution if you're pulling a bullet and trying to resuse components when you don't remove lube after sizing.

The One Shot that's still in the case from lubing the inside of the neck can make powder stick to the inside of the case so you would have to de-prime and tumble the case to get it out of there to get a correct charge the next time.

I just throw them away if there's a problem or its too hot, etc. Not worth my time to save a case and a bullet and some tainted powder.

 

[mtnbound]

So, in this situation, you now have a piece of loaded ammo, that you go to chamber and it doesn’t fit, so you just set it aside and I’m assuming you pull the bullet save the powder, save the primer, and then chuck the case. Is that correct? If not, how are you determining whether it chambers or not before loading?


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Yes, if I have any difficulty with chambering a loaded round it gets marked with a sharpie. Once I’m back at the reloading bench I pull the bullet to be reused. Dump the powder back into its container.
I put the empty case in a container marked “check”. In the event I was desperate for brass I would go through this container and check case length.

 

[philcox]

Folks have talked about cartriges that stretch (or similar language). Fo those, being uneducated, I have a couple questions:

1. Is there a list or some way to know which are likely to be in the 5-6 reloads, as opposed to the 2-3 reloads?
2. Does the resize die have material affect on this? If so, what dies are the best to "limit it"?

Thanks

 

[wapitibob]

Folks have talked about cartriges that stretch (or similar language). Fo those, being uneducated, I have a couple questions:

1. Is there a list or some way to know which are likely to be in the 5-6 reloads, as opposed to the 2-3 reloads?
2. Does the resize die have material affect on this? If so, what dies are the best to "limit it"?

Thanks

My 7STW is a belted mag. For some reason, which I have no clue, the SAAMI brass is purposely made way short of the SAAMI chamber specs, such that, my Nosler brass "shoulder datum to case head dimension" will grow 18 to 20 thousandths. Mostly formed after 2 firings, fully after 3. I don't touch this brass during that time other than to neck size with a bushing; no trim no body sizing. After 3 firings I use a Larry Willis die to size the body ahead of the belt, bump shoulders .002, and neck size.

The PRC I just started shooting only has a .003" difference at that shoulder datum, between unfired brass and twice fired. It doesn't grow enough to worry about case head separation unless I was to bump the shoulder waay back.

Throw sizing die instructions away that say to screw the die down till it hits the shell holder, and set the die off your specific case shoulder. You can smoke the shoulder by running it thru a wax candle flame and you will easily see when the sizing die just touches that shoulder area. Bump it a cpl thou and case separation won't be an issue. When I started reloading years ago and screwed the sizer down per instructions, it bumped the shoulders back .015" and I separated a bunch of case heads.

 

[Formidilosus]

Do I understand correctly that you don't clean brass between shots? Just spray with Oneshot? Do you spray the insides of the necks as well?

A bit inside the necks. The cases are laid down, and I spray at a slight angle into the case mouth and on the case.

As for not trimming, I thought the concern with overly long necks wasn't just difficulty chambering but the neck extending too far into the chamber and causing dangerous pressure spikes. Is that not a real life concern? Or does difficulty chambering occur before the pressure spikes, so you have some warning?

Can’t say it’s ever occurred that I’ve had pressure issues. Feeding without fail or fuss is way high on my priority list, so the moment a case or round is funky- it gets tossed.

 

[Formidilosus]

So, in this situation, you now have a piece of loaded ammo, that you go to chamber and it doesn’t fit, so you just set it aside and I’m assuming you pull the bullet save the powder, save the primer, and then chuck the case. Is that correct? If not, how are you determining whether it chambers or not before loading?


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Throw the whole thing away.

 

[Formidilosus]

Guys are worrying “losing” the yearly expenditure of a decent cup of coffee.

Think about this for a bit- you buy brass for $0.20 to $1.00 a piece. FFS- you can get 223 brass with a bullet- for .40 cents a piece right now, and 308win primed already for .40 cents.

So you shoot your .20 cent brass 5 times and throw it away- how much money are you actually spending a year on brass? And how much compared to primers, powder, and bullets?

If you’re a heavy shooter, $200-$300 a year in brass and cut the stupid stuff out. Your precision isn’t any better with Lapua than it is starline. Why in the nine-hells people act like brass is this life altering commodity that they kill themselves overs trying to save is insanity. I’ve watched people lose their minds trying to find a piece of brass in the snow while a wounded animal is still in front of them trying to get away. It’s just brass.

 

[mlevimadden]

Folks have talked about cartriges that stretch (or similar language). Fo those, being uneducated, I have a couple questions:

1. Is there a list or some way to know which are likely to be in the 5-6 reloads, as opposed to the 2-3 reloads?
2. Does the resize die have material affect on this? If so, what dies are the best to "limit it"?

Thanks

For question 1, there are a ton of variables to this. In general, if you want less case growth, shoot a cartridge with a steeper shoulder angle (30+ degrees) at less than SAAMI max pressures.

I've seen pretty big variation in case OAL in cheap brass and factory once fired brass though. I don't think there's any cartridge and brand of brass you could pick that will guarantee you get 5-6 reloads without exceeding SAAMI OAL spec.

For question 2, RCBS sells their X series die set that they claim reduces the need to trim, but I have never used them. Maybe someone with experience will chime in.

 

[wind gypsy]

Folks have talked about cartriges that stretch (or similar language). Fo those, being uneducated, I have a couple questions:

1. Is there a list or some way to know which are likely to be in the 5-6 reloads, as opposed to the 2-3 reloads?
2. Does the resize die have material affect on this? If so, what dies are the best to "limit it"?

Thanks

My understanding is that shallower angled shoulders and more body taper = more prone to case stretch. Most more recent case designs have steeper shoulder angles and a bit less body taper.

The more a die squeezes a case body and works the necks, the more cases will stretch. So a standard FL sizing die that squeezes a neck really tight just to expand it with the expander ball right away might cause more case stretch.

 

[mlevimadden]

Guys are worrying “losing” the yearly expenditure of a decent cup of coffee.

Think about this for a bit- you buy brass for $0.20 to $1.00 a piece. FFS- you can get 223 brass with a bullet- for .40 cents a piece right now, and 308win primed already for .40 cents.

So you shoot your .20 cent brass 5 times and throw it away- how much money are you actually spending a year on brass? And how much compared to primers, powder, and bullets?

If you’re a heavy shooter, $200-$300 a year in brass and cut the stupid stuff out. Your precision isn’t any better with Lapua than it is starline. Why in the nine-hells people act like brass is this life altering commodity that they kill themselves overs trying to save is insanity. I’ve watched people lose their minds trying to find a piece of brass in the snow while a wounded animal is still in front of them trying to get away. It’s just brass.

Have you done any testing comparing precision between a budget versus premium brass brand? I know a lot of guys are buying premium brass to get longer life out of it, but I don't think I've ever seen a test where someone showed a measurable improvement in precision by using Lapua versus Starline.

 

[BULLBLASTER]

Brass growth is more a product of how you are sizing than case design.

I have 6mm creedmoor cases with 12 firings on them, never been trimmed and are within a couple thousandths of brand new.

I have 260 rem brass with 6 firings on it and the same, never trimmed, not measurable longer than new.

Belted magnum brass with 10 firings on it and never been trimmed.

Case oal growth is a nonfactor for me.

 

[Formidilosus]

Have you done any testing comparing precision between a budget versus premium brass brand? I know a lot of guys are buying premium brass to get longer life out of it, but I don't think I've ever seen a test where someone showed a measurable improvement in precision by using Lapua versus Starline.

Yes. That’s why I don’t particularly care which brass I use.