Painless load development (mine)

[The Guide]

is 7828SSC close to plain 7828

The difference is kernel size only. Same compound with different sized powder kernel.

Jay

 

[Sponxx]

The difference is kernel size only. Same compound with different sized powder kernel.

Jay

Meaning I could transfer the load pretty closely dropping a bit to accounting for different "batch", and then work up?

 

[Sponxx]

Any powder/load recs for the 105 BTHPs?

 

[justin davis]

First time reloading.

Read this thread before and resolved to follow it because why make life hard?

Shot 9 shots yesterday to find where I hit pressure because it’s my first time doing this and was being cautious. Loaded up at what I thought was a good place below max and came back today to zero.

Did two sighters, followed by 93 more shots at 100 yards. Can vouch that this method works. Now I’ve got 104 bullets down the barrel and won’t clean it for its entire life.

Thanks Form for putting the knowledge out there.

Wow that’s a great group! 93 shots!! Well done

 

[wind gypsy]

Meaning I could transfer the load pretty closely dropping a bit to accounting for different "batch", and then work up?

Yes. If you weren't right up tight to pressure with the existing 7828 load, id load the same charge 7828sc and validate. If you were close to pressure with existing load maybe load a little 1 shot ea charge ladder to validate velocity/pressure quick and go forth.

 

[Sponxx]

Yes. If you weren't right up tight to pressure with the existing 7828 load, id load the same charge 7828sc and validate. If you were close to pressure with existing load maybe load a little 1 shot ea charge ladder to validate velocity/pressure quick and go forth.

Thannks
Load was 48.4g which is over book max, but no pressure signs on brass, primers or bolt lift, and velocity was 3000fps, which was per book.
I'll start at 47 and work up in 0,5g increments.

 

[Moose83]

@Camv

 

[nuffgun]

So with this style of reloading what should I do with new brass and new rifle. Is firing all 100 rounds of new brass under a moderate load a good idea before starting this painless method? Or just shoot 20 rounds of factory through the rifle and go straight into load dev with the new .243win starline brass?

 

[Q_Sertorius]

So with this style of reloading what should I do with new brass and new rifle. Is firing all 100 rounds of new brass under a moderate load a good idea before starting this painless method? Or just shoot 20 rounds of factory through the rifle and go straight into load dev with the new .243win starline brass?

I would just use the factory ammo to get the rifle sighted in and then start reloading. I wouldn’t waste the time, powder, or brass life fire forming brass (unless you have a .243 AI chamber?).


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Harvey_NW]

So with this style of reloading what should I do with new brass and new rifle. Is firing all 100 rounds of new brass under a moderate load a good idea before starting this painless method? Or just shoot 20 rounds of factory through the rifle and go straight into load dev with the new .243win starline brass?

My preference with new brass new rifle is test a mid to upper range of book charges for pressure safety and then load whatever, go perfect zero and get velocity data if you have a chrono, true up calculator, and be done. Once those 100pcs are fireformed, shoot another quick pressure ladder (pressures will likely be higher with formed brass), and load accordingly. I've had best luck dropping at least a full grain from pressure signs on formed brass.

 

[huntnful]

My preference with new brass new rifle is test a mid to upper range of book charges for pressure safety and then load whatever, go perfect zero and get velocity data if you have a chrono, true up calculator, and be done. Once those 100pcs are fireformed, shoot another quick pressure ladder (pressures will likely be higher with formed brass), and load accordingly. I've had best luck dropping at least a full grain from pressure signs on formed brass.

I do the exact same. Normally shoot through the first 100 pieces relatively quickly. Gathering data, seeing if bullet prefers a certain powder, seeing if barrel prefers a certain bullet, getting pressures ect.

Before you know it, the 100 pieces are shot, you have wealth of data if you wanted it, and the barrel is likely sped up. Pick the best recipe you found during the virgin 100 firings, drop .5gr or 1gr and go shoot it. It'll likely hammer.

 

[nuffgun]

So you are saying drop .5-1 grains on once fired brass based off the chosen load on new brass?

 

[huntnful]

So you are saying drop .5-1 grains on once fired brass based off the chosen load on new brass?

Yes. Virgin brass seems to absorb/hide pressure signs while its forming to the chamber dimensions with the first firing IME

 

[MEdude]

This info is perfectly timed, as I’m about to start new brass (alpha) with new barrel.

Have you found the .5 gr decrease holds true, even with a small cartridge? 6 ARC…

 

[Harvey_NW]

This info is perfectly timed, as I’m about to start new brass (alpha) with new barrel.

Have you found the .5 gr decrease holds true, even with a small cartridge? 6 ARC…

I haven't loaded that case but I would bet the same principle holds true. It's so easy I just test it to be safe, load about 4-5pcs of formed brass in .5gr increments and go fire them into a dirt bank and see where pressure shows up. I would be willing to bet it's a grain or more below where you found pressure with new brass (temp dependent, take that into consideration as well).

@huntnful has also done some condition testing by spraying cases with water to simulate a wet environment and his results have persuaded me to drop at least 1.5gr from slight pressure signs to be confidently safe. If you load up to consistently sticky extraction and just drop .5-1gr and think you're good without temp or chamber testing, you could be in for a surprise if it sprinkles while you're out hunting.

 

[Sponxx]

Yes. Virgin brass seems to absorb/hide pressure signs while its forming to the chamber dimensions with the first firing IME

I will be starting development with new Alpha brass 308 cases necked down for 243win. If I don't run up the charge towards pressure, but towards speed (ie 3000fps with 95gr NBTs) would speed change with subsequent firings? Based on your response I would assume so, and it makes sense to rerun the testing once brass is fired

 

[NoDakhunter]

I’m curious as well. I’m new to reloading and was expecting the opposite. More room for powder with an expanded case was my thought process… will be curious to experiment with my once fired brass

 

[Q_Sertorius]

To me, what the last few posts have been suggesting is not “painless load development.” Anything that involves fire forming all your brass before you start “reloading for real” is the opposite of “painless.” Unless there is a really good reason to fire forming your brass - like if you have a custom or wildcat chamber - it is a pointless exercise that won’t result in measurable improvement for most shooters.

But, if you insist upon it, then my recommendation is to go buy 100-200 rounds of factory ammo and use it all up in sighting in and practice. Then reload it. That will at least save you the time of hand loading a bunch of cartridges that you think aren’t good enough for “real use.”

Of course, if you do that, you might discover that you don’t actually need to reload to get acceptable results. I have a .270 Winchester that shoots the Remington factory 130-grain loads under an inch at 100 yards. I’ve been sitting on 600 Sierra .277 bullets for 25 years because it turned out it wasn’t worth my time to reload them. I have something like 400 once-fired .270 brass just waiting for the time that it makes sense to reload for it.

My standard practice when I buy any new rifle starts with buying 200 loaded cartridges for it, using those as a basis for baseline accuracy, bullet weight preferences, etc. Once I establish that is good, I get enough components to reload that brass about four times each. When I shoot a thousand rounds from a rifle, then, maybe, I will get some “good brass” for it. But with the number of rifles I own, that hasn’t happened yet.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[mlevimadden]

I’m curious as well. I’m new to reloading and was expecting the opposite. More room for powder with an expanded case was my thought process… will be curious to experiment with my once fired brass

It helps me to think about it from a conservation of energy standpoint. The powder charge igniting generates an amount of energy. Part of this energy is consumed by forcing the brass shoulder and body expanding to the chamber walls on virgin brass. The rest of the energy forces the bullet out the bore.

If you’re not resizing fired brass all the way back down to the virgin dimensions (which most people aren’t), then the brass doesn’t take as much energy on subsequent firings to expand to the chamber dimensions. This leaves more energy to force the bullet out of the bore unless you reduce the energy generated by the powder ignition (by reducing charge weight).

The change in interior volume of the brass doesn’t matter if the wall thickness is the same because the casing will expand to the chamber walls on firing and have the same volume. This goes out the window if we start talking about a thicker brass casing or water (from rain or snow) in your chamber since those will reduce the volume during firing and therefore increase pressure.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I will be starting development with new Alpha brass 308 cases necked down for 243win. If I don't run up the charge towards pressure, but towards speed (ie 3000fps with 95gr NBTs) would speed change with subsequent firings? Based on your response I would assume so, and it makes sense to rerun the testing once brass is fired

I’m curious as well. I’m new to reloading and was expecting the opposite. More room for powder with an expanded case was my thought process… will be curious to experiment with my once fired brass

In my experience, speed and pressure increase on 2nd firing vs virgin brass. It is theorized that some of the energy on first firing is absorbed by the case expanding to the chamber. Once cases are formed and shoulders are properly bumped back only .002-3", there's less expansion of the case and an increase in peak pressure/velocity. When I did my temp testing this winter I used my initial established charge in virgin brass of 58gr @ 88°F 10 shot avg velocity 2933fps-



at 36°F the avg dropped to 2893fps, so ~.77fps/°F powder rating.



In 1x fired and prepped brass 58gr @ 38°F avg 2947fps and had consistent bolt lift (group also opened up, probably still within the variability).



Dropping the charge to 56.5gr @ 29°F avg 2857fps and group went back to .6" with smooth extraction and no pressure signs.



Take from that what you will.

To me, what the last few posts have been suggesting is not “painless load development.” Anything that involves fire forming all your brass before you start “reloading for real” is the opposite of “painless.” Unless there is a really good reason to fire forming your brass - like if you have a custom or wildcat chamber - it is a pointless exercise that won’t result in measurable improvement for most shooters.

But, if you insist upon it, then my recommendation is to go buy 100-200 rounds of factory ammo and use it all up in sighting in and practice. Then reload it. That will at least save you the time of hand loading a bunch of cartridges that you think aren’t good enough for “real use.”

Of course, if you do that, you might discover that you don’t actually need to reload to get acceptable results. I have a .270 Winchester that shoots the Remington factory 130-grain loads under an inch at 100 yards. I’ve been sitting on 600 Sierra .277 bullets for 25 years because it turned out it wasn’t worth my time to reload them. I have something like 400 once-fired .270 brass just waiting for the time that it makes sense to reload for it.

My standard practice when I buy any new rifle starts with buying 200 loaded cartridges for it, using those as a basis for baseline accuracy, bullet weight preferences, etc. Once I establish that is good, I get enough components to reload that brass about four times each. When I shoot a thousand rounds from a rifle, then, maybe, I will get some “good brass” for it. But with the number of rifles I own, that hasn’t happened yet.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

It's literally the painless method with a powder charge check/adjustment on 2nd firing to stay out of pressure..