Painless load development (mine)

[Formidilosus]

Formidilosus - I've read a lot of your posts and Just coming onto this thread, which makes a lot of sense.

I have tried the "find the lands" method before, and it seemed to work with .243win, 95gr BT and 7828 for about 3000fps.
I loaded different charges and shot for groups, OCW style. All of them were good (good equipment should give good results ), however the slower powder seems to fill the case a bit
I have a bunch of 7828, but also 1pb of RL17 and am going to try that.

Assuming no limitations due to magazine length, does the "boattail to neck-case junction" means the flat bottom of the bullet? or the beggining of the boattail from the bearig surface, or in between? I assume start of the boat-tail, but want your clarification

Different bullets will have different boat-tail length, so they could encroach on the case more than others. At the same time it seems easier than constantly chasing the lands

The start of the boattail at or above, the neck/shoulder junction of the case.

 

[Sponxx]

Thanks guys. It is kind of what I have been doing, though based on a different premise. Will try things using this method. I assume for flatbased bullets like Partitions (which I shoot in the 7mmRM) the same applies ie. Don't seat deeper than neck-case junction
Has there even been the case that too long bullets kiss then lands and end up deeper down? (Would have to seat to lands not case-neck)

 

[HighUintas]

Thanks guys. It is kind of what I have been doing, though based on a different premise. Will try things using this method. I assume for flatbased bullets like Partitions (which I shoot in the 7mmRM) the same applies ie. Don't seat deeper than neck-case junction
Has there even been the case that too long bullets kiss then lands and end up deeper down? (Would have to seat to lands not case-neck)

Yes. Opinions vary, but I always try to stay at least 0.020 off the lands

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Yes. Opinions vary, but I always try to stay at least 0.020 off the lands

...and depending on the cartridge/bullet combo, seating this way can force COL longer than mag length. In a Tikka its no biggy as a quick change of the bolt stop and mag alleviates the problem. I've done this for my 7-08 (162 ELDX) and 25-284 (134 ELDM). Both have LA stop and mags and function flawlessly.

 

[justin davis]

So reloading for a Tikka 6.5 prc. Rifles has about 50 rounds down the pipe so far.

I’m new to reloading. This is virgin brass. 58 grains of N565 shooting the 156 Berger’s. Bullets are seating approx 20 thou off the lands. Average velocity is 2980 fps.

This was an 8 shot group at 100

This look good?

 

[amassi]

So reloading for a Tikka 6.5 prc. Rifles has about 50 rounds down the pipe so far.

I’m new to reloading. This is virgin brass. 58 grains of N565 shooting the 156 Berger’s. Average velocity is 2980

This was an 8 shot group at 100

This look good?

Yep your done


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[josh0513]

So reloading for a Tikka 6.5 prc. Rifles has about 50 rounds down the pipe so far.

I’m new to reloading. This is virgin brass. 58 grains of N565 shooting the 156 Berger’s. Bullets are seating approx 20 thou off the lands. Average velocity is 2980 fps.

This was an 8 shot group at 100

This look good?

Very nice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wind gypsy]

Has there even been the case that too long bullets kiss then lands and end up deeper down? (Would have to seat to lands not case-neck)

Yes, frequently. It's not so much length of bullet but rather length of bearing surface on a bullet. This has long been the basis for freebore length selected in custom reamers by most. Typically freebore for a given bullet is selected with the basis of keeping the start of the bearing surface on the boattail end just in in front of the neck shoulder junction and the front of the bearing surface a short distance from contacting the lands.

Google "donut area" in relation to the neck shoulder junction. Sometimes a thicker ring of brass develops there so it is desirable to keep bearing surface in front of there in addition to the keeping more space for powder in a case.

There's an abundance of good shooting ammo out there with bearing surface well below the neck shoulder junction so its not always a big deal but if a guy can choose an ideal condition, that aint it.

 

[wind gypsy]

The measure I showed is the Harrell's 90 Culver measure. I got it just under 10 years ago, it has gone up in price from $209.99 to $230 in that time. It's the cheapest measure Harrell's makes.

I measure powder three ways, and honestly, the Harrell's is my least used of the three due to my workflow, but I still can't imagine getting rid of it for reasons I'll elaborate on below.

First, let's look at repeatability. I chose four powders to test:
H1000 - Large stick extruded
Varget - medium stick extruded
8208 XBR - small stick extruded
Leverevolution - ball

Obviously there are plenty of powders in between, but this should show a decent representation of the performance.

For this test I left the micrometer at one setting (54.75), dumped powder in, then threw 30 charges and weighed them on my FX120i (a lab scale that reads down to .02 grains and is well behaved for anyone unfamiliar). I didn't do any trick double tapping of the handle or body that I've read about anyone doing, I didn't discount throws that had some kernel binding, I didn't even throw a few to get it settled initially. Filled it up with powder and went for it. My results were:

View attachment 615255

I've done test's like this before, and am not surprised by these results. Even with H1000, I'm perfectly happy with this type of performance for:

Anything I do to 600 (I don't compete in the accuracy disciplines at 600).
Anything I do with a 223, my highest volume round (If I was trying to win a PRS match with one, I'd weigh, but I have yet to do that)
Club matches, especially with a powder like 8208 (or 4895 which throws pretty similar).

Three things really separate the Harrell's from say an RCBS thrower for me:
- It has a micrometer adjustment that clicks, is repeatable, and is linear
- It does seem to be more accurate/less particular about how you run it
- It clamps onto a flat edge instead of requiring a stand

For serious competition beyond 600 I weigh them, but with 8208 or 4895 it's pretty hard to tell the difference on target.

The Micrometer (at 54.75 here):

View attachment 615257

The micrometer is very repeatable, and most extruded powders are ~ 1.75 on the mic (or 7 clicks) per grain. So if I'm trying to throw 40.0 grains, I guess and throw one, lets say I get 38.5 grains. I'd add 10 clicks and throw again. After the third throw I should just be throwing a few to confirm I'm not a click off before I mass produce. And after I do that ONCE, I write down the mic number with my load data and can go back to it immediately, throw one or two to confirm, and I'm mass producing again.

I mentioned I don't use the Harrel's a ton anymore for production (I'll get to that), but what I can't live without it for is load development. I can't shoot that close to my house, and I am pretty impatient with load development and want to have it done in one range trip. I do a little homework, finding a seating depth that's either .020"-.030" off the lands or whatever fits in the mag, then I find charge ranges I think are appropriate and quickly map the Harrell's mic to them, here's one from my notes I did from a 6.5 PRC from a while back:

View attachment 615258

Then I get to the range, load and shoot (hopefully over the chrono) getting something like this:

View attachment 615259

Once I get home, I'll throw a handful at wherever I landed and write down the weight for reference as well.


For anyone loading in decent volume that isn't ONLY loading 1000yd level competition ammo, AND is loading single stage I'd definitely recommend considering something similar. The reason I don't use mine for production much is that I load everything on a progressive, and it's either using a powder funnel and the FX-120i w/ Autotrickler V2 as shown here:

View attachment 615262

I can do 200+ rounds an hour with prepped brass on that setup, pretty relaxed and weighing charges more or less to the kernel. Or...

I set it up with the Hornady thrower with the case activated powder measure as shown here:

View attachment 615263

It's a bit less accurate and a bit more finicky to get dialed in. It does have a micrometer that works pretty well, and once I get it set it often stays there for 1,000+ rounds. And I only use it for 8208 or finer. It's pretty easy to exceed 300 rounds an hour with prepped brass and being relaxed about it.

I can stick the Harrell's in the powder funnel and use it that way; and I have in the past. However, my Autotrickler is so dialed at this point that for this workflow the Harrell's doesn't really save any time.

Bumping this topic. I've got myself a Harrells premium (or benchrest premium?) measure now and messed with it just a bit. with H4895 I was getting over 0.5 grain ES without a ton of charges thrown. Is there any specific technique or setup a guy should be doing to maximize performance of these measures?

 

[Sandstrom]

Auto trickler;-)

 

[wind gypsy]

Auto trickler;-)

Have one. Pulling a handle and pouring directly into a case is mo faster.

 

[Bluumoon]

Bumping this topic. I've got myself a Harrells premium (or benchrest premium?) measure now and messed with it just a bit. with H4895 I was getting over 0.5 grain ES without a ton of charges thrown. Is there any specific technique or setup a guy should be doing to maximize performance of these measures?

I try to keep the powder bottle more than half full and kind of knock the handle against backstop at the top of the stroke. Don’t know if a larger bottle would help. Someone mentioned keeping a consistent throw movement as key.

Honest question, how much powder ES translates to a meaningful fps ES down range? Recently acquired a Garmin, something I’ll look at w my next .223 batch.

 

[wind gypsy]

I try to keep the powder bottle more than half full and kind of knock the handle against backstop at the top of the stroke. Don’t know if a larger bottle would help. Someone mentioned keeping a consistent throw movement as key.

Honest question, how much powder ES translates to a meaningful fps ES down range? Recently acquired a Garmin, something I’ll look at w my next .223 batch.

A 0.5-0.6 grain ES is a pretty big swing on a 24 grain charge for 223. Less so on 308 sized or larger cases.

Autotrickler is pretty fast, not a huge deal if I dont use the measure for stick powder.

 

[Bluumoon]

A 0.5-0.6 grain ES is a pretty big swing on a 24 grain charge for 223. Less so on 308 sized or larger cases.

Autotrickler is pretty fast, not a huge deal if I dont use the measure for stick powder.

Thinking back to one of the Form Fridays, I mean is a half grain even in .223 enough to create an ES that changes down range hit rates, say out to 600 yards.

 

[Castle Rock]

Never used a harrels but running a bit of old powder mixed with a lot of graphite is standard procedure for breaking in a measure for me, works wonders fo getting constant throws
It makes a huge difference with the Dillon measures

Bumping this topic. I've got myself a Harrells premium (or benchrest premium?) measure now and messed with it just a bit. with H4895 I was getting over 0.5 grain ES without a ton of charges thrown. Is there any specific technique or setup a guy should be doing to maximize performance of these measures?

 

[Carl Ross]

Bumping this topic. I've got myself a Harrells premium (or benchrest premium?) measure now and messed with it just a bit. with H4895 I was getting over 0.5 grain ES without a ton of charges thrown. Is there any specific technique or setup a guy should be doing to maximize performance of these measures?

I didn’t do anything in the way of trick moves when I got those numbers, but obviously the more consistently you can operate it the better. If I had a silver bullet I’d say so. They do all respond a little different, so playing around with different throwing techniques (and weighing as you go) is what I’d do.

 

[wind gypsy]

Thinking back to one of the Form Fridays, I mean is a half grain even in .223 enough to create an ES that changes down range hit rates, say out to 600 yards.

Maybe not. Would expect 0.6 of a grain to be about 70 FPS and a couple tenths in that application at 600 yards.

 

[IDHUNTER]

After trying the old small sample ladder method I wanted to try the painless method when switching to a new bullet...162 ELD-M

I had no pressure at book max of 64 grains so I loaded 8 rounds (that's just how many pieces of brass I happened to have ready to go at the time). My magazine length is my limiting factor so I went .010 less to give myself a little clearance.

Went to the range and shot 8 rounds into a 1" group. No cool down between shots.That's good enough for me so I came home and loaded up 50 more.

Question for the group: How far do I need to go to true the velocity without a chronograph?

Sauer 100
7mm Rem Mag
Nightforce NXS
162 ELDM
64 gr H4831sc
Norma Brass
~3.370 COAL
@Formidilosus

 

[TX_Diver]

Maybe not. Would expect 0.6 of a grain to be about 70 FPS and a couple tenths in that application at 600 yards.

how’d it do? Did you get any improvement over last few weeks? I was looking at harrels last night after reading this again as the CM lite isn’t exactly quick…

 

[Formidilosus]

After trying the old small sample ladder method I wanted to try the painless method when switching to a new bullet...162 ELD-M

I had no pressure at book max of 64 grains so I loaded 8 rounds (that's just how many pieces of brass I happened to have ready to go at the time). My magazine length is my limiting factor so I went .010 less to give myself a little clearance.

Went to the range and shot 8 rounds into a 1" group. No cool down between shots.That's good enough for me so I came home and loaded up 50 more.

Question for the group: How far do I need to go to true the velocity without a chronograph?

Sauer 100
7mm Rem Mag
Nightforce NXS
162 ELDM
64 gr H4831sc
Norma Brass
~3.370 COAL
@Formidilosus


View attachment 782606View attachment 782608

As far as you will shoot, but above approx 1,340’ish fps.