Overcoming Fainting at Injury?

[EastHumboldt]

Just to be clear, there's a lot of helpful advice here but be careful what you take out of this thread. Vasovagal syncope is not a phobia or fear. It is an autonomic physiological response. It doesn't mean you aren't brave or tough, and it can't be fixed by standard phobia-oriented treatments like repeated exposure. And actually, there are different types and it affects folks differently depending on which type you have.

But that doesn't mean you can't do anything about it! Actually there are some simple things you can do if you feel dizzy or tingly in your extremities. I found a lot of the tips here help me, give them a try, they may help you too:

How to Avert a Vasovagal Episode | envisionsrh

www.envisionsrh.com

Since OP was talking about field dressing, I'll say I've found cut-resistant gloves like the kind a lot of people who clean fish wear to be really helpful too. They're lightweight and cheap and you really only need one on your off-hand.

If the syncope is of psychogenic origin, you’d think it might be able to be affected psychologically? In this case, it looks like the visual trigger causes a psychological reaction automatically leading to syncope. I think it would be super interesting to try the treatment mentioned in post # 37 with somebody who’s afraid of needles

 

[taskswap]

If the syncope is of psychogenic origin, you’d think it might be able to be affected psychologically? In this case, it looks like the visual trigger causes a psychological reaction automatically leading to syncope. I think it would be super interesting to try the treatment mentioned in post # 37 with somebody who’s afraid of needles

I'm not sure whether's it's technically "psychogenic" or not. Most of what I know came from my doctor and he never mentioned that term. You can get down a rabbit-hole pretty easily with the terms used for these things, but I just Google'd it and a top result (to the extent you believe such things!) says:

"Vasovagal syncope (VVS) accounts for about 60–70% of syncope in children and adolescents (4). Psychogenic pseudosyncope (PPS) is the other entity of TLOC without virtual cerebral hypoperfusion or impaired physiological function (5–7). It is considered a conversion disorder in nature (8)."

The way that's worded doesn't make it sound as if the "rectangle" is necessarily a "square," if you know what I mean. I'll leave it to everyone else's doctors to say what their specific recourses should be, but just to share the data point, that trick of repeatedly flexing and relaxing your fingers and toes over and over was very helpful for me. I can more or less stop it in its tracks. That's a physical act rather than a psychological one, which doesn't mean you're wrong, either.

Our brains are one of the next "frontiers," I'm certain of that...

 

[MallardSX2]

We were drunk as thieves one night in college and decided it would be a good idea to have a wooden spoon sword fighting contest. I was up first, and I cracked my buddy in the knuckles, and it must have hurt bad because he passed out and fell backwards from the kitchen into this little crappy apartment bathroom and put his hand right into the toilet. We drew a penis on his face with a sharpie, took a picture of him, and left him there until he woke up a little while later.

To say he had a low tolerance for pain would be an understatement. He always thought he was hot shit, and I took him down with a wooden spoon. I never let him live it down.

True story. lol

 

[CNEdeer307]

I was diagnosed with vasovagal syncope at a young age (5 or so), and had 10-12 incidents of passing out and accompanying seizures triggered by the sight of human blood whilst growing up. Was told I would grow out of it but had an accident in my late teens and more recently in my early twenties. It's not a fear of blood, as the sight of it really doesn't gross me out or make me squeamish, more so a psychological reaction where my brain attempts to shut down that is incredibly difficult to overcome. As an outdoorsman and just a functioning human this sucks. It could be incredibly dangerous given I have an episode under the wrong circumstances. Like stated above in this thread there are methods you can use to avoid fainting, I personally use hooking, or the hook maneuver similar to fighter pilots, which seems to help me keep blood flow to my brain and prevent me from passing out (I've also used the head between the knees method). Long story short, it sucks, and while you can never fully prevent it you can take up strategies to mitigate winding up unconscious...

 

[Cubby]

I'm glad to see others have the same thing as I do. Wife thinks it's funny that I can field dress critters but can't handle human blood.

 

[KsRancher]

I was diagnosed with vasovagal syncope at a young age (5 or so), and had 10-12 incidents of passing out and accompanying seizures triggered by the sight of human blood whilst growing up. Was told I would grow out of it but had an accident in my late teens and more recently in my early twenties. It's not a fear of blood, as the sight of it really doesn't gross me out or make me squeamish, more so a psychological reaction where my brain attempts to shut down that is incredibly difficult to overcome. As an outdoorsman and just a functioning human this sucks. It could be incredibly dangerous given I have an episode under the wrong circumstances. Like stated above in this thread there are methods you can use to avoid fainting, I personally use hooking, or the hook maneuver similar to fighter pilots, which seems to help me keep blood flow to my brain and prevent me from passing out (I've also used the head between the knees method). Long story short, it sucks, and while you can never fully prevent it you can take up strategies to mitigate winding up unconscious...

My 16yr old son has been diagnosed with it. But I don't think that's what he really has. He got a whooping cough vaccine the end of Oct 2022. He started to feel bad within a few minutes and passed out. Hit the floor crushing his nose. (We are 2 surgeries and 20+ Dr appointments into that.) Since then he has passed out several more times. But for no reason. He has got several shots and bled several times since with no reaction. He knows when its coming. He is a runner and can run like mad and not have any trouble. But maybe feel it coming on if he is loading a trailer load of firewood. He can keep it from happening most of the time by just sitting down. If that don't work then he has to lay down and pick his legs up in the air. He has determined that if he let's it go until he starts to get tunnel vision, TOO LATE. He going out. As soon as he hits the ground and blood gets to his brain he wakes up.

Several Dr's say it has nothing to do with the vaccine. Just his physiological reaction to the needle. Vasovagal Syncope.

 

[taskswap]

I've never really knew this has a name or was really much of a thing. My wife is in the medical field and finds it humorous that I can be elbows deep in the chest cavity of any animal and blood everywhere in the skinning shed and on me. That doesn't bother me. I probably am around 15-20 plus deer a year getting cleaned. But, if I have to get blood drawn or see someone with an open wound, I get light headed and start cold sweating and feel like I'm about to pass out. It's the damndest thing I've ever seen. Nothing I have ever done seems to make it better except just not look at human blood. This post is intriguing.

My wife is the same She worked neurotrauma and used to tell all kinds of stories I don't want to hear. You don't want to KNOW why so many of them wear crocs to work!

My doc explained to me that it's not actually the blood that's the trigger. That's why I can field dress and elk and not blink an eye. It's something to do with how you're wired for reacting to emergencies, adrenaline-style. The same way allergic reactions are a "histamine rush," this is a blood-rush to your extremities (my type anyway). Your body figures the saber-tooth is mauling you and gets ready to strangle it, and gets carried away - too much blood goes to your hands, so you get light-headed. I don't know how accurate that is, but it sure made sense to me.

 

[ODB]

It's called vasovagal syncope and it's not something you can control from my knowledge. I never had a problem with it until one time I was giving blood and it like flipped a switch in my brain and caused it to start happening with serious injuries.

Best thing you can do is calm down and let your body relax. Deep, controlled breaths, etc. In the moment though, if you're standing and feel like you're going to faint, I've been able to push it off by clenching my abs to push the blood back towards my head. Look up the breath control fighter pilots use, thats what I'm talking about.

Yup. Had the exact same experience exactly ONCE. Nurse was taking some blood and was literally digging to find a vein. Hit a nerve and it shot down my arm like lightning. She slowly pulled the needle out (turns out she blew through both sides) and about that time I started sweating and got pale. Finished giving blood (had fasted for 12(!) hours) and eventually was fine.

Have given blood for labs many many times since that and force myself (to the chagrin of the tech) to watch the needle go in. No fainting.

I think the one time was due to the nerve being hit and my body took over.

 

[Mtns2hunt]

"Just takes practice. Keep cutting"

Maybe death by a thousand cuts?

Sorry poor taste but I could not resist. Suggest you not hunt or hike the back country alone.

 

[taskswap]

"Just takes practice. Keep cutting"

Maybe death by a thousand cuts?

Sorry poor taste but I could not resist. Suggest you not hunt or hike the back country alone.

This is not necessary at all. Vasovagal syncope is extremely benign and short-lived. It's an annoyance, but not dangerous unless you're leaning over a cliff. Most people don't even actually faint, it just feels like you're going to. And there are plenty of ways to help avoid it or stop it in its tracks once it starts.

 

[Mtns2hunt]

Vasovagal syncope

I think you are also confusing Pre-syncope with Syncope. "Pre-syncope is the feeling that you are about to faint. Someone with pre-syncope may be lightheaded (dizzy) or nauseated, have a visual "gray out" or trouble hearing, have palpitations, or feel weak or suddenly sweaty. When discussing syncope with your doctor, you should note episodes of pre-syncope as well."

Just to be clear: "Syncope (SINK-a-pee) is another word for fainting or passing out. Someone is considered to have syncope if they become unconscious and go limp, then soon recover. For most people, syncope occurs once in a great while, if ever, and is not a sign of serious illness. However in others, syncope can be the "first and only warning sign prior to an episode of sudden cardiac death." Syncope can also lead to serious injury. Talk to your physician if syncope happens more often."

I agree with you that Syncope may be benign in many circumstances but there are also many times it may not be benign. Just my opinion but I have seen many cases of syncope during my ten years in an ER and eight on a level one Trauma Team. In several falls, stitches were required. I might add it is never a bad idea to travel with a partner when enjoying outdoor sports. Unfortunately I don't always follow my own advice.

 

[Mtns2hunt]

To learn more, I went to Healthline.com ----Seems legit ... LOL

The top two tips were:

• If you can, lie down with your legs in the air.
• If you can’t lie down, sit down and put your head between your knees.

When I read that second one, my brain added "...and kiss your ass goodbye..."

(But, no, I'm sure everything will be fine .... LOL)

Essentially, as you know, if you feel you might faint you want blood flow to the brain and to increase your blood pressure.

You don't want your head to explode, but maybe think about non-resident hunters, crossbows in archery season, the Western point system, Christmas shit in the stores in September...

Something like any of that should help ....


Good luck.

Spot on. these techniques are taught in many first aid courses.

 

[taskswap]

I think you are also confusing Pre-syncope with Syncope. "Pre-syncope is the feeling that you are about to faint. Someone with pre-syncope may be lightheaded (dizzy) or nauseated, have a visual "gray out" or trouble hearing, have palpitations, or feel weak or suddenly sweaty. When discussing syncope with your doctor, you should note episodes of pre-syncope as well."

Yeah, definitely not a doctor here so go with what you/your doctor said. I also understand there are different types in different people. Still, though, I think there's a lot of FUD, teasing, and more going on in this thread, as well as a ton of bad advice mixed in with the good. I don't think there's any place to say somebody shouldn't be a hunter, or imply they're weak or a lesser person just because of this condition. It's very manageable and definitely nothing to let stop you.

 

[Touchdown88]

Growing up my dad was a taxidermist and I helped him cape hundreds of animals. I also have a bad vasovagal syncope. I know it sounds weird but that's the lot I was given.

If I have a blood draw, I make them lay me down or I get my knees up next to my chest. I've a lot more than the average number of minor operations done on me while I've been awake. Make them keep you laying down or have them cover the IV.

At this point, I don't care if I pass out and people make fun of me (I kind of expect it), now I'm more worried about my safety if/when I black out.

 

[Marbles]

Desensitization and reframing. How to go about the first I'm not sure. Breathing exercises might help, or a mind game where you pretend it is not your blood.

Regarding the vasovagal response, things you can try:
-lay down (if trying desensitization, probably should start laying down with your feet up)
-flex the muscles in your legs and butt
-stay hydrated
The other recommendations are really for people who have issues all the time that interfere with daily life. So, I will stop at those.

 

[Marbles]

After reading a bit more:

Vasovagal results in a slowing of the heart rate and dilation of blood vessels. The end result is low blood pressure coming from two sources. The heart is not putting out enough blood, and gravity is pulling the blood away from your heart, which makes it even harder for the heart to put blood out.

Lowering your head means the pressure in your arteries does not have to fight gravity as much, meaning a higher pressure in your brain, which can avoid passing out.

Elevating your feet means more venous blood returning to the heart, which means each beat can generate a higher pressure.

That is not all the details, but it is all one needs to know to understand it.

Some people have issues where their nervous system just does not work correctly. For these people it is very much a disease, they can pass out in the shower, with standing up, with lifting things, Etc.

In the OPs case (based on what he has said), it is a normal psychological response generating a physical response. If you can retrain the psychological, the physical will resolve. How to retrain the psychological side of it is beyond my expertise. I can make some guesses, but a professional who specializes in it would be the best bet.

Visualization might help and would not involve self harm.

Control might help. Give yourself a job and focus on it. I don't like getting IVs or blood drawn, however I have no problem teaching people to place IVs on me. The difference is in the hundreds of times I have been poked to teach people, I was in control, I'm not going to tell someone how to do their job though, so when getting blood drawn I'm not in control.

I have a surgery today that will be done under local anesthesia, I'm rather curious as to how my brain will respond. I may not watch.

 

[Fowl Play]

This thread actually became way more interesting than I thought it was going to be. Glad to have a name for it.

I should say, I have never actually fainted in any of my episodes, came close, but never fully. So I don't actually know what the other side of this looks like. What happens when you come to after an episode? Is it like throwing up? So after it's done, you're good to go and it won't happen again. Or... if the trigger persists (blood coming out of an open injury) will you just have another episode.... repeat... until you get control of it?

 

[taskswap]

I suspect this condition is like stillbirths. I've been through that as well and before it happened, never knew anybody it had happened to. After it did, everyone I talked to was like "oh that happened to your Aunt Margaret, you know." No, I didn't know. Nobody talked about it.

I bet there are a lot more people out there with it than we realize, it's just not talked about much.

 

[loganwayne]

i dont like my own blood or other peoples blood. me and my two older cousins where playing when we were kids (10,12). showing one cousin my brand new knife his brother ran around the car and into the knife. it was a BAD cut kids being kids we tried to hide it. 4 hours later it wouldnt stop so he told his mom, he ended up with 30+ stitches. i dont like blood now. that said i was 17 at boy scout camp and playing football some kids knife opened in his pocket and stabbed into another kids leg. i was able to apply pressure and bark order until EMS showed up... then passed out.
I cant get my blood drawn without passing out, or watch someone else get a shot or have IVs. But in the heat of the moment i can keep myself composed. I damn near knocked myself out earlier this month with a tree and was able to get into the house and call my wife. several other close calls all ive been able to keep it together long enough to get myself taken care of or to get myself help.

 

[Marbles]

This thread actually became way more interesting than I thought it was going to be. Glad to have a name for it.

I should say, I have never actually fainted in any of my episodes, came close, but never fully. So I don't actually know what the other side of this looks like. What happens when you come to after an episode? Is it like throwing up? So after it's done, you're good to go and it won't happen again. Or... if the trigger persists (blood coming out of an open injury) will you just have another episode.... repeat... until you get control of it?

Depends on the person. Some people will faint multiple times. Some will be fine as long as they don't look a it. Some will be fine until it comes time to mess with it (talking major injuries), and some will not have the issue again with that injury.

I have no personal experience, so cannot describe it from that perspective. Even then, I imagine there will be individual variation.

Though, while watching was not an option and I was laying flat, when the first hand was being done I got a bit nauseous if I visualized what was going on. For the second hand, I was able to visualize the entire process and it was not an issue. Close as I can get to a personal perspective.