Open Breech Muzzleloader suggestions

[missjordan]

I’ve been wanting to get into black powder for a couple years now and when i checked the Idaho draw results i was successful in drawing a muzzleloader elk tag. Now i need to make a purchase for an open breech muzzleloader. Any recommendations on inline muzzleloader brands? I’ve been looking at Knights selections and the Bighorn seems to be the gun I keep circling back to. Are there any others that i should also consider as well? It would be a plus if i can exchange some parts to make it compatible for less restrictive states as well. Might even use it in my home state of Montana for fun. Thinking my budget will be in the $600 range


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[Lazzwarbird]

I have been very happy with my Bighorn. It can also be converted to 209. Seems to be very accurate with the Hornady SST’s

 

[NextAdventurePls]

What is your load you shoot with your bighorn?

 

[sabotloader]

Easy for me...

A Western legal DISC

They have excellent accuracy...

And they are extremely versatile... they can go from a Western version to a Modern ML very easily...

BUT IF... you really want to set up look closely at the Ultra-Lite

Which again transform into a modern ML. This one has the new Black Nitride finish...

 

[sneaky]

CVA Accura has an Idaho legal version that can be converted to 209 use easily as well. The guys from Knight use to stop into my archery shop back in Tennessee. Can't go wrong with them or the CVAs.

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[Olyhunter]

I'm a Knight Bighorn fan. Relatively inexpensive, simple, easy to clean and accurate. Has served me well the last 10 years or so. Good luck with your search.

 

[orelkaddict]

I shoot a CVA as well, super accurate with the Oregon legal bullets we're using. Good friend shoots a Knight with excellent groups out of it . Hard to go wrong with either in my book. Not sure what bullet you plan on using but we're using the "Black Widow" bullets with great success . Good luck on your elk hunt!!

 

[sneaky]

I hear good things about the No Excuses bullets for use in Idaho

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[ole hunter]

I had a CVA they don't recommend any bullet heavier than a 350 , I use a 460 gr bull shop bullet in my Knight Ultra Lite , Plus the CVA has bore size issues . My brother in law has 3 of them and range from .498- .502 .The .498 is a hard loader . He runs the bullets through before hunting or shooting just to get them to start after fouling shot , He sent it back to CVA for repair and got a letter and untouched gun on what ammo to use in it , none being legal for Oregon ml season , What got us is the gun was sold new to me as a North West legal,,,

 

[sneaky]

I had a CVA they don't recommend any bullet heavier than a 350 , I use a 460 gr bull shop bullet in my Knight Ultra Lite , Plus the CVA has bore size issues . My brother in law has 3 of them and range from .498- .502 .The .498 is a hard loader . He runs the bullets through before hunting or shooting just to get them to start after fouling shot , He sent it back to CVA for repair and got a letter and untouched gun on what ammo to use in it , none being legal for Oregon ml season , What got us is the gun was sold new to me as a North West legal,,,

Those No Excuses bullets are legal and come in various diameters to fit the different bores. Just tell him what bore size your rifle has and that's what he sends.

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[Idaholewis]

I would go with Bullshop Bullets and His NASA Lube. I would trust Bullshop Dan’s Lead to be closer to Pure. After my Lead Hardness testing of NE Bullets from 2 different Forum members i can’t say that for No Excuses. If you think Lead Hardness Don’t matter? You better think again! I want all of my Bullets to come from the Same Batch of Lead/Alloy Regardless of Hardness, They will usually Group together this way and you can sight in for them, BUT shooting a “Mixed Bag” of Lead Hardness (aka Mutt Bullets) That quickly proved to be a Nightmare in my Experience!!

Here is a 50 yard Target i shot with Dan’s Bullshop 460s, I liked them well enough that i had a Custom mold made, i sent an original Bullshop Bullet to Tom @ Accurate Bullets molds and had him Duplicate it as close as he possibly could.
Original Bullshop 460

My Copy of Dan’s Bullshop

Just 1 of MANY good Targets i have shot with my Copy Bullet

Video of 2 Targets, the Group above is in here. This is 1 of my Many Fast Twist Sidelock Muzzleloaders, Green Mountain LRH 1:28 Twist Barrel in a TC Renegade Stock, Lyman 57SML Tang peep sight, Lyman 17AHB Globe Front sight with a Lee Shaver fine BPCR insert

 

[Idaholewis]

To the OP on Muzzleloader Recommendation, I go with Sabotloader on the Knight Disc, and if you can afford it, and want a REALLY REALLY nice Setup, the Knight Ultra Lite is simply amazing, and something you WON’T Regret if you enjoy Muzzleloaders
First off, The Knight Bighorn is a NICE Rifle don’t get me Wrong! I owned a New MK-85 Which is identical in Function to the Bighorn (Both Plunger Guns) If you shoot Real Blackpowder like i do (i shoot Swiss Real Blackpowder Exclusively in my Guns) the Plunger Guns such as the Bighorn and MK-85 get NASTY DIRTY, and in my Opinion are a Nightmare to Clean, at least to my Meticulous standard of Clean.

Here is my Old MK-85 after just 6 Shots, the nipple in this Rifle was a Brand new Treso/Ampco with a TEENY TINY .028 Flash Hole, Look how Much Blowback Stil made it back in around the Hammer and into the Reciever. Yep that is suppose to be Shiny Stainless, but is as Black as Charcoal in there! The Reciever is what I found Difficult to get really Good and Clean, There Just isn’t any easy way to get inside there and REALLY SCRUB like needs to be done. I found an Old Tooth brush to work best. Remember, this is MY HANDS ON experience with Real Blackpowder, It’s my understanding that the Sub powder T7 isn’t like this

Another angle, As you can see The Reciever is NASTY, and Difficult to get into to Scrub

Here is the Hammer assembly, It is my opinion that this Needs to Broke down and Cleaned Thoroughly after each Shooting session with Real Blackpowder, As you can see it is NASTY. If you look closely the Spring is Tarnished at one end, this is the End that is hidden and cannot be reached unless the Bolt is taken apart, The Previous owver (Who bought the Rifle New) Did not understand How to Disassemble it, So he cleaned the Best he could See (THANK GOD FOR STAINLESS!) This Spring needs Replaced.

Here is a BRAND NEW Hammer assembly from a very close friend of mine’s Bighorn, he brought the Rifle by for me to prepare it for an Upcoming Elk Hunt, He had JUST bought this gun, and had only shot it 1 Time. I asked him if he was confident he got it Good and Clean? He felt that had. When i got the Rifle I decided to Strip it down and “Check” His cleaning Job? GOOD THING i did that! Remember, This was a BRAND NEW Rifle that was fired 1 time. He obviously didn’t Take the Bolt apart and Clean it, Re Lube it. Imagine what this would look like after a Year of sitting in a Closet etc.

And last, But not least, If you ever decide to put a Scope on the Rifle make DARN SURE You Wrap the Scope in Duct Tape, or something similar to Protect it From “Blow Back” If you Forget to do this you will RUIN the Scope Finish, it will Burn it. I used this Thick Old Sock (it was clean before i started ) I used it to Protect the Bottom of my Scope from Harmful Blow Black, Before each shot I placed it between the Reciever and Scope. As you can see it Burned Right Through. You will DESTROY a Scope Finish if you don’t properly protect it With these Plunger Guns.

 

[Idaholewis]

Before anyone jumps on me that i am being mean to the Plunger guns, NO I AM TRULY NOT, I am trying to educate and help you keep your Gun like Brand new, and Protect your Scope. It really Bums me out when i see 1 of these Rifles with a Pitted out Breech/Reciever from neglect, But as you can see from my photos above, it can EASILY happen if you Don’t take the Time and Properly Clean these Guns!

These Rifles are nice, They handle well (i like the Old MK-85 MUCH better than the Bighorn Handling wise) They have Great triggers in them, They are VERY WELL BUILT! If you take the time to Clean these Rifles properly, i have no doubt they Will Outlast you, and your Grandchildren!

The Sealed Breech Bolt Guns like the Disc, Ultra Lite, Mountaineer (i just Bought a Brand new Mountaineer waiting on it to arrive) Are VERY Different Animals, They are FAR and Away easier to Clean/Maintain (NO COMPARISON to a Plunger Gun!!) And these Rifles will NOT Burn/Ruin a Scope Finish. The Plunger Guns such as the Bighorn, MK-85 etc. Cannot be compared to The sealed breech Bolt Guns I mentioned above, That is a VERY Unfair Comparison! I shot a Brand New Knight Ultra Lite Recently With Triple Seven Powder, I was able to Sit in my Living Room Chair and Clean that Rifle THROUGH, I was Sold!! I Traded off Both of my Plunger inline Rifles, and Ordered a Knight Mountaineer. I will likely never own another Plunger Gun, Unless i were to Rescue it CHEAP

My advice will always be the Knight Ultra Lite, And Mountaineer. Do I think they are worth the extra Money? ABSOLUTELY they are!!!

 

[Idaholewis]

2 items that make Blackpowder Clean up a Breeze and neither will break the Bank to own

Steam cleaner, i have been using 1 of these little Hand helds for 3-4 years now, These things work AMAZING! For Breech plugs, nipples, Hammer assemblies, etc. etc. These little Steam cleaners simply cannot be beat!! Pedersoli actually markets a Fancy unit (where i got the handheld idea) The Pedersoli unit is 700-800 dollars! These little Hand held steam cleaners are 25-35 bucks on Amazon, and they work EVERY bit as good as the Pedersoli, Steam is Steam!

This is the model i am currently using, it works STELLAR!!

And an Ultra Sonic Parts Cleaner, Between the Little hand held Steam Cleaner above, and one of these Ultrasonic parts cleaners, all of your Smaller stuff such as Breech Plugs, Nipples, Hammer assembly’s, Bolts, Etc. Become a Breeze to Clean Walk in the Door and start the Parts Cleaner, Drop in parts, and Start on Barrel. Multi task clean

 

[missjordan]

IdahoLewis and Sabotloader you both got my head spinning now! I’m glad i created this topic because i really thought all muzzleloaders are created equal. Now i got some decisions to make! I definitely don’t want to be married to cleaning a gun that in-depthly after its shot so maybe the buy once cry once mentality will happen with the ultra lite


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[Idaholewis]

IdahoLewis and Sabotloader you both got my head spinning now! I’m glad i created this topic because i really thought all muzzleloaders are created equal. Now i got some decisions to make! I definitely don’t want to be married to cleaning a gun that in-depthly after its shot so maybe the buy once cry once mentality will happen with the ultra lite


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Remember, my experience and photos above are with REAL Blackpowder (Swiss, Which is the best of the best ) Regardless, Real Blackpowder is DIRTY NASTY stuff Plain n Simple! But NOTHING compares to it in igniting it, Real Blackpowder goes off IMMEDIATELY at the tiniest spark

Sabotloader uses Triple Seven 3F powder, which in my limited experience was much easier to Clean up after than Real Blackpowder. Mr Sabotloader has some REALLY Good detailed pics in session of his Cleaning process with the Plunger Guns (Bighorn, MK-85, etc.) I HIGHLY advise you look at his photos, He definitely knows what he is doing!

Trade offs, With Triple Seven Powder (Any of the Substitute Powders for that matter) You will need to make Sure the Nipple Flash Hole is .033, or there VERY close abouts in order to Reliably ignite T7, and Pyrodex (Even then, I stil Had Hangfire problems with Pyrodex P, I completely gave up on that Stuff!) Real Blackpowder on the other hand will Set off IMMEDIATELY, even with a Tiny .026 Flash hole (My BACO Platinum Lined Nipples are .026) I use, and Swear by Treso/Ampco Nipples, They have a Very small .028 Flash Hole which is AWESOME for Real Blackpowder, But definitely to Small for the Substitute Powders, You would need Pin gauges, and a Tiny wire drill bit to Drill the Flash Holes out to .032-.033 if you were using, or planned to use the Sub Powders.

As i said in the previous Post, the Plunger Guns (Bighorn, Mk-85, Etc.) Are AWESOME Rifles, But they are DEFINITELY more in Depth to Clean/Care for, ESPECIALLY if you use Real Blackpowder. I only Shot my 2 Old Plunger guns a Couple of times due to the DREAD of Cleaning them!!! If you notice in my pics of the NASTY breech, i am Outside on a nice day, I shoot lots of Cold Winter days, I couldn’t imagine cleaning 1 of these Nasty things in my Little Bathroom, it Would probably be best to Climb in the Shower/Tub with it I was Honestly Glad to trade them off, and see them go to a Good home

And don’t forget they will COOK a Scope Finish, i mean literally Ruin the Finish if you ever Mount a Scope and Forget to protect it.

If you don’t plan to Shoot much, and just hunt with the Rifle each year, I would probably Go with a Bighorn, Suck it up and deal with properly Cleaning it, Re lubing it good to preserve, and putting it away for another year. But if you want to Go out and Enjoy Shooting a Muzzleloader often, that is EASY to Clean/Care for when you get home, No worries of ever harming a Nice Scope, Get yourself a Knight Ultra Lite, or a Mountaineer, You won’t regret doing it! You can Shoot BH-209 in these Rifles, where you can NOT do so in the Bighorn (Plunger Guns) The U Lite, And Mountaineer are Expensive, But in my Opinion they are VERY WELL Worth it.

 

[sabotloader]

ILewis, just wondering - which percussion cap are you using for ignition?

I also drill out the normal percussion nipple to 0.031 to help with ignition of T7. For myself 0.033 is almost to the point of throwing the nipple out. That would allow way to much blow back pressure back through the nipple and into the breech.

For a cap I only use #11 MAG caps or Dynament Noble 1075+ caps for ignition. I gave up on Musket caps many years ago. If you are using a Musket cap I would suggest a Dynament Noble cap. The CCI caps of today are all meant for re-enactment and do not carry a lot of UMPH! Suggesting these cap are for shooting T7 which is harder to ignite than real BP

With this setup I have not really ever had a problem with ignition of T7 - either 2f or 3f - even in my side locks.

 

[sneaky]

Doesn't CCI make a magnum cap as well? Any experience with those?

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[Idaholewis]

Mike, The German RWS 1075 (10-3/4) “Plus” are NO DOUBT the Best/Hottest caps out there, But they cost a Small fortune around these parts, like 12 Bucks per 100, As much as i shoot that Would get EXPENSIVE! I use the CCi Magnums, i can get them locally for about 4-5 Dollars per 100, I keep about 5,000 on hand.

TC Hotshot Nipples are .035 Brand new out of the Package (i feel that is AWFULLY Large, But it definitely sets off Pyrodex P reliably) At .032-.033 i stil feel fine, I have Never had any issues with my Guns going Half Cock, No negatives at .032-.033 for me, I would definitely replace at .035, I have gone to Halfcock at that point.

It is Crazy to me that TC Sold them that Large. These flash Holes are something that a LOT of folks don’t realize the importance of? There is a Fine Critical line here, To small and you won’t the Set the Charge off Reliably, To Big and you get EXCESSIVE Blowback, Which can be Dangerous

 

[Idaholewis]

Doesn't CCI make a magnum cap as well? Any experience with those?

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Yep! Sabotloader’s photo above is the “Magnum” CCi Caps. I shoot a TON of these, The RWS German Caps Are RIDICULOUSLY Expensive here. They are AWESOME caps, But not for Double the price, or even more per 100 over the CCi Magnums.