OnX hypocrisy

[JF_Idaho]

They can all mine this data.

Google, Apple, Samsung, AT&T, Verizon, etc, etc

That cat is long out of the bag.

 

[Mountain_Life]

I think the notion of hunting map services using personal pins and tracks to their advantage is a pretty far stretch of the imagination unless you're a very well known hunter. (if that's the case you shot yourself in the foot by using social media).

I've seen a lot of very poor hunters with lots of pins in some very poor areas. I just can't imagine an established hunter using pins from a random unknown source.

Also, think that @WKR should come back and answer some of the questions directed towards him here. Seems like he lit a few ditch fires and took off...

By no means am I standing up for OnX, but this just seems like a tar and feathering show.

 

[el_jefe_pescado]

Another good reminder on the privacy front…all iPhone users should immediately do the following:

Settings > Privacy & Security > Location Services > Camera > Never

I just turned this off recently. I was shocked at how accurate the “geo tag” was on a number of my photos. More importantly I recently learned that the geo tag follows the picture when you send it to others. A buddy recently sent me a picture of his archery bull and I was able to plug in the iPhone coordinates and find him really easily on BaseMap.

I had no idea that I’ve been spot burning myself for all these years.

 

[WKR]

I think the notion of hunting map services using personal pins and tracks to their advantage is a pretty far stretch of the imagination unless you're a very well known hunter. (if that's the case you shot yourself in the foot by using social media).

I've seen a lot of very poor hunters with lots of pins in some very poor areas. I just can't imagine an established hunter using pins from a random unknown source.

Also, think that @WKR should come back and answer some of the questions directed towards him here. Seems like he lit a few ditch fires and took off...

By no means am I standing up for OnX, but this just seems like a tar and feathering show.

Haha settle down there Lil-rokslider, I'm working on it, I have a day job you know.

 

[WKR]

What is Eric Sigfried's associated with Cottonwood Outfitters? I can't find anything suggesting he owns them or is affiliated with them online.

Montana Elk Hunting in Eastern Montana | Cottonwood Outfitters

Cottonwood Outfitters in Montana is the premier destination for elk hunting. For more info about us and our hunting outfitters, contact us today!

www.cottonwoodmt.com

So Cottonwood Outfitters got permitted to guide on 10,000+ acres and leased some bordering private parcels. Do their leases completely landlock the public land they're permitted on?

Edit: I scribbled out his address as I dont think its fair to post that

 

[WKR]

I am generally familiar with the region this is in.... those spots look inaccessible via any county roads. Are you implying that there used to be BMAs that opened access to them? Also one of them actually is accessible without even having Type 2 permission...

I am not seeing what you're seeing.

I'm not implying anything, simply stating the fact that Eric has made videos and wrote articles about the detrimental impact of land locked public lands. All while he himself is locking up access to said lands and guiding on it. He claims to be a public access advocate.

can't you see the irony and hypocrisy in that?

 

[MountainTracker]

This must be why I got an ass kissing "thank you for trusting us" email from Cliff at OnX today?

Remember... just cause you ain't paranoid, don't mean they ain't out to getcha.

Haha I got one too and the first thing I thought of was this thread and that they must have seen it.

Like has been stated we give up privacy for convenience when we use all these cool new devices.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[541hunter]

I'm not implying anything, simply stating the fact that Eric has made videos and wrote articles about the detrimental impact of land locked public lands. All while he himself is locking up access to said lands and guiding on it. He claims to be a public access advocate.

can't you see the irony and hypocrisy in that?

Do you know that he is responsible for actually preventing access? I’d imagine the ranch owners already had access restricted. Was there access prior to him leasing the hunting rights to the ranches?

 

[roadrunner]

If any of this is true, he will have his day in court.

Kind of violating monopoly laws...

 

[Fowl Play]

This is straight from OnX's privacy policy. They can basically do whatever they want with your data as long as it is not tied to you when distributed. It's all legalese, but once they anonymize it, it's no longer "your" data. Take that however you want. I use the service for it's features and convenience, but would still bet tons of money that the company uses this information for profit, and every single one of their employees, family friends, etc. has at least referenced the data and likely used it for their own purposes.

Use of Personal Information.

We collect, use, and disclose your Personal Information in accordance with the specific business and commercial purposes below:

• Deidentification and Aggregation. Deidentifying and aggregating information collected through our services and using it for lawful purposes.

 

[bowtech3dhunter]

This is straight from OnX's privacy policy. They can basically do whatever they want with your data as long as it is not tied to you when distributed. It's all legalese, but once they anonymize it, it's no longer "your" data. Take that however you want. I use the service for it's features and convenience, but would still bet tons of money that the company uses this information for profit, and every single one of their employees, family friends, etc. has at least referenced the data and likely used it for their own purposes.

Use of Personal Information.

We collect, use, and disclose your Personal Information in accordance with the specific business and commercial purposes below:

• Deidentification and Aggregation. Deidentifying and aggregating information collected through our services and using it for lawful purposes.

Wait, are you saying they can see my waypoints. Because that’s not cool!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Idahowitzer]

This is the epitome of hypocrisy and why I have "unsubscribed" from as many hunting companies as I possibly can. Hunters need to start realizing these companies are not serving their customer base whatsoever. Siegfried's landlocked public lands has been public knowledge for at least a year and OnX has remained silent. He removed Cottonwood Outfitters from his LinkedIn about a year ago, so clearly he is trying to not get caught. GoHunt actively sells "hunts" and landowner tags. They are the king of spot blasting. They may or may not be whoring out user data, but it would be hard to imagine they don't. I don't believe for a minute that company staff isn't looking at users' waypoints for scouting. I'm not sure GAIA isn't just the hiking/biking/mountaineering world's version of OnX and it's maps are far inferior. I could give a damn if they are "woke". Give me a break. Realtree, and countless other companies are taking our dollars and leasing up hunting properties. Sitka is sponsoring professional snowboarders and paying into Land Trust. Why? They are out to "make content" and expand their customer base. This isn't about conservation, or telling a story, it's about the bottom line.

I am 35 and have been a lifelong Idaho hunter since age 12. Amazingly, I hunted, and harvested game, before Google Earth and OnX existed. Unbelievable, I know, but it can be done. What has become of hunters is quite literally sickening. We are so damn gear driven, shortcut hungry, and hopelessly addicted to dopamine hits on our 'gram, that we've forgotten why we're outside. Somehow we've been fooled into thinking recruiting more hunters and buying more gear is conservation. Pint nights aren't saving mule deer either.

Not long ago, I was able to put in homework and do some door knocking to gain access on private lands. I showed my appreciation by bringing landowners cases of beer, homemade bread, sending Christmas Cards, and gift cards. They genuinely appreciated it. When OnX came on scene, it made finding a landowner accessible to the masses. It used to take a bit more work and dedication than that. As OnX was in everybody's hands, more people were finding access, and poor hunter behavior was ruining opportunity on property after property. Landowners' phones were ringing off the hook, and before long, outfitters came with checkbooks. OnX is only a map service, but it certainly contributed to these factors. I have gone from well over 10,000 acres of private lands I had access to on a handshake basis, to zero in 2 seasons. For a while, I thought, at least OnX is involved in opening up more PUBLIC lands and that can be good for me too. As it turns out, it's about good press, not good sportsmanship.

What is becoming rapidly apparent is that even the most highly regarded hunting companies doing "conservation" are not providing a net positive for any of us. Sure, we can buy all sorts of Gucci hunting pants and matching underwear, but at what cost? The industry has become so beholden to the almighty dollar and is ever hungry for more. Today's hunter has become the biggest group of lookalike fanboys that can't sniff bull poo if it lands in their nostrils. Campsites are full of matching camo cowboys pouring over their cell phones talking about their new gear and their next gadget. EVERYBODY wants to get some gold nugget of strategy from Corey Jacobsen, Randy Newberg or Cam Hanes instead of putting in the hard work for themselves.

We're all pushing each other off of a dwindling pile of tags, on ever shrinking huntable acres to mimic our favorite hunting influencers. I don't begrudge the hard working, non-resident hunter who has come to my state for the last 20-30 years to enjoy their time on public lands respectfully. As a matter of fact, I feel bad that many have lost their opportunity.

What I do hate, and I mean hate, is the "adventure hunting" model so espoused by our hunting heroes who are killing far more than they can eat. Influencers are coaching guys how to maximize their points in every western state and have created a Taylor Swift Ticketmaster scenario out of Idaho non-resident license sales. Why? Drum up the hype, and sell more gear.

The truth is, much of the hunting here has gotten pretty damn awful. Just an hour outside of Boise, lies unit 39. Once a gem of an area with thriving mule deer and good hunting, has now become a mess of hunters on every ridge and creek bottom. The roads and trails are a nitro circuis of dirkbikes and ATV's. Five years ago, I could buy a second non-resident tag MID SEASON. Now it's gone in 60 seconds. We're told it's not good enough to hunt in 1 state. The result? My hunting partners and I can no longer have our out of state dads or close relatives get a tag every once in a while. Again, OnX is just feeding this machine, as are many other companies.

So for those of you asking? "What other map service do I use?" The choice is up to you. For me? I'm willing to start making sacrifices and simplify how I hunt. I generally big game hunt in one portion of one unit. I don't need a GPS or a map. I can find my way in the dark, in dense fog. I know how to build a fire and keep myself alive if I don't make it to camp before dark. My friends and family can wait for me to get out to hear from me. The InReach usually stays behind. Since unsubscribing to influencers and subscribing to the wilderness, I have become a better hunter and a far better woodsman. Quite honestly, it is refreshing.

For those of you that this falls on deaf ears, so long. If all this fuss is what hunting is, then I'm not a hunter. From now on, I will chose to Hunt Quietly.

 

[Hnthrdr]

This is the epitome of hypocrisy and why I have "unsubscribed" from as many hunting companies as I possibly can. Hunters need to start realizing these companies are not serving their customer base whatsoever. Siegfried's landlocked public lands has been public knowledge for at least a year and OnX has remained silent. He removed Cottonwood Outfitters from his LinkedIn about a year ago, so clearly he is trying to not get caught. GoHunt actively sells "hunts" and landowner tags. They are the king of spot blasting. They may or may not be whoring out user data, but it would be hard to imagine they don't. I don't believe for a minute that company staff isn't looking at users' waypoints for scouting. I'm not sure GAIA isn't just the hiking/biking/mountaineering world's version of OnX and it's maps are far inferior. I could give a damn if they are "woke". Give me a break. Realtree, and countless other companies are taking our dollars and leasing up hunting properties. Sitka is sponsoring professional snowboarders and paying into Land Trust. Why? They are out to "make content" and expand their customer base. This isn't about conservation, or telling a story, it's about the bottom line.

I am 35 and have been a lifelong Idaho hunter since age 12. Amazingly, I hunted, and harvested game, before Google Earth and OnX existed. Unbelievable, I know, but it can be done. What has become of hunters is quite literally sickening. We are so damn gear driven, shortcut hungry, and hopelessly addicted to dopamine hits on our 'gram, that we've forgotten why we're outside. Somehow we've been fooled into thinking recruiting more hunters and buying more gear is conservation. Pint nights aren't saving mule deer either.

Not long ago, I was able to put in homework and do some door knocking to gain access on private lands. I showed my appreciation by bringing landowners cases of beer, homemade bread, sending Christmas Cards, and gift cards. They genuinely appreciated it. When OnX came on scene, it made finding a landowner accessible to the masses. It used to take a bit more work and dedication than that. As OnX was in everybody's hands, more people were finding access, and poor hunter behavior was ruining opportunity on property after property. Landowners' phones were ringing off the hook, and before long, outfitters came with checkbooks. OnX is only a map service, but it certainly contributed to these factors. I have gone from well over 10,000 acres of private lands I had access to on a handshake basis, to zero in 2 seasons. For a while, I thought, at least OnX is involved in opening up more PUBLIC lands and that can be good for me too. As it turns out, it's about good press, not good sportsmanship.

What is becoming rapidly apparent is that even the most highly regarded hunting companies doing "conservation" are not providing a net positive for any of us. Sure, we can buy all sorts of Gucci hunting pants and matching underwear, but at what cost? The industry has become so beholden to the almighty dollar and is ever hungry for more. Today's hunter has become the biggest group of lookalike fanboys that can't sniff bull poo if it lands in their nostrils. Campsites are full of matching camo cowboys pouring over their cell phones talking about their new gear and their next gadget. EVERYBODY wants to get some gold nugget of strategy from Corey Jacobsen, Randy Newberg or Cam Hanes instead of putting in the hard work for themselves.

We're all pushing each other off of a dwindling pile of tags, on ever shrinking huntable acres to mimic our favorite hunting influencers. I don't begrudge the hard working, non-resident hunter who has come to my state for the last 20-30 years to enjoy their time on public lands respectfully. As a matter of fact, I feel bad that many have lost their opportunity.

What I do hate, and I mean hate, is the "adventure hunting" model so espoused by our hunting heroes who are killing far more than they can eat. Influencers are coaching guys how to maximize their points in every western state and have created a Taylor Swift Ticketmaster scenario out of Idaho non-resident license sales. Why? Drum up the hype, and sell more gear.

The truth is, much of the hunting here has gotten pretty damn awful. Just an hour outside of Boise, lies unit 39. Once a gem of an area with thriving mule deer and good hunting, has now become a mess of hunters on every ridge and creek bottom. The roads and trails are a nitro circuis of dirkbikes and ATV's. Five years ago, I could buy a second non-resident tag MID SEASON. Now it's gone in 60 seconds. We're told it's not good enough to hunt in 1 state. The result? My hunting partners and I can no longer have our out of state dads or close relatives get a tag every once in a while. Again, OnX is just feeding this machine, as are many other companies.

So for those of you asking? "What other map service do I use?" The choice is up to you. For me? I'm willing to start making sacrifices and simplify how I hunt. I generally big game hunt in one portion of one unit. I don't need a GPS or a map. I can find my way in the dark, in dense fog. I know how to build a fire and keep myself alive if I don't make it to camp before dark. My friends and family can wait for me to get out to hear from me. The InReach usually stays behind. Since unsubscribing to influencers and subscribing to the wilderness, I have become a better hunter and a far better woodsman. Quite honestly, it is refreshing.

For those of you that this falls on deaf ears, so long. If all this fuss is what hunting is, then I'm not a hunter. From now on, I will chose to Hunt Quietly.

Well put

 

[Leverwalker]

Correct to a degree as it would need some mechanism to get the data to Garmin.

I know my old Garmin unit came with software to install on my laptop. This allowed me to update the GPS (ex: newer maps), manage waypoints, etc. But it's naive to believe that there was no data being slurped up by Garmin to some extent.

From a pure surveillance perspective, we have zero privacy and it is not the government. Damn near everything spies on you and sends the data somewhere to be reviewed, sold, aggregated, etc. No government is as effecting at spying on its populace that businesses whose customers want convenience.

Lots of applications, both on phones and computers, can theoretically be configured to not send data. But when you look at actual traffic, often times those settings are an illusion as data is still being exfiltrated out despite the settings.

Excellent, thanks AZ. I believe I used Basecamp with my old Oregon 600. Funny, staring up on my wall now, where I have several topos I refer to, mark up and use on the hunt. There's a few things I know a good deal about, and then...this world. Appreciate the info.

 

[Leverwalker]

This is the epitome of hypocrisy and why I have "unsubscribed" from as many hunting companies as I possibly can. Hunters need to start realizing these companies are not serving their customer base whatsoever. Siegfried's landlocked public lands has been public knowledge for at least a year and OnX has remained silent. He removed Cottonwood Outfitters from his LinkedIn about a year ago, so clearly he is trying to not get caught. GoHunt actively sells "hunts" and landowner tags. They are the king of spot blasting. They may or may not be whoring out user data, but it would be hard to imagine they don't. I don't believe for a minute that company staff isn't looking at users' waypoints for scouting. I'm not sure GAIA isn't just the hiking/biking/mountaineering world's version of OnX and it's maps are far inferior. I could give a damn if they are "woke". Give me a break. Realtree, and countless other companies are taking our dollars and leasing up hunting properties. Sitka is sponsoring professional snowboarders and paying into Land Trust. Why? They are out to "make content" and expand their customer base. This isn't about conservation, or telling a story, it's about the bottom line.

I am 35 and have been a lifelong Idaho hunter since age 12. Amazingly, I hunted, and harvested game, before Google Earth and OnX existed. Unbelievable, I know, but it can be done. What has become of hunters is quite literally sickening. We are so damn gear driven, shortcut hungry, and hopelessly addicted to dopamine hits on our 'gram, that we've forgotten why we're outside. Somehow we've been fooled into thinking recruiting more hunters and buying more gear is conservation. Pint nights aren't saving mule deer either.

Not long ago, I was able to put in homework and do some door knocking to gain access on private lands. I showed my appreciation by bringing landowners cases of beer, homemade bread, sending Christmas Cards, and gift cards. They genuinely appreciated it. When OnX came on scene, it made finding a landowner accessible to the masses. It used to take a bit more work and dedication than that. As OnX was in everybody's hands, more people were finding access, and poor hunter behavior was ruining opportunity on property after property. Landowners' phones were ringing off the hook, and before long, outfitters came with checkbooks. OnX is only a map service, but it certainly contributed to these factors. I have gone from well over 10,000 acres of private lands I had access to on a handshake basis, to zero in 2 seasons. For a while, I thought, at least OnX is involved in opening up more PUBLIC lands and that can be good for me too. As it turns out, it's about good press, not good sportsmanship.

What is becoming rapidly apparent is that even the most highly regarded hunting companies doing "conservation" are not providing a net positive for any of us. Sure, we can buy all sorts of Gucci hunting pants and matching underwear, but at what cost? The industry has become so beholden to the almighty dollar and is ever hungry for more. Today's hunter has become the biggest group of lookalike fanboys that can't sniff bull poo if it lands in their nostrils. Campsites are full of matching camo cowboys pouring over their cell phones talking about their new gear and their next gadget. EVERYBODY wants to get some gold nugget of strategy from Corey Jacobsen, Randy Newberg or Cam Hanes instead of putting in the hard work for themselves.

We're all pushing each other off of a dwindling pile of tags, on ever shrinking huntable acres to mimic our favorite hunting influencers. I don't begrudge the hard working, non-resident hunter who has come to my state for the last 20-30 years to enjoy their time on public lands respectfully. As a matter of fact, I feel bad that many have lost their opportunity.

What I do hate, and I mean hate, is the "adventure hunting" model so espoused by our hunting heroes who are killing far more than they can eat. Influencers are coaching guys how to maximize their points in every western state and have created a Taylor Swift Ticketmaster scenario out of Idaho non-resident license sales. Why? Drum up the hype, and sell more gear.

The truth is, much of the hunting here has gotten pretty damn awful. Just an hour outside of Boise, lies unit 39. Once a gem of an area with thriving mule deer and good hunting, has now become a mess of hunters on every ridge and creek bottom. The roads and trails are a nitro circuis of dirkbikes and ATV's. Five years ago, I could buy a second non-resident tag MID SEASON. Now it's gone in 60 seconds. We're told it's not good enough to hunt in 1 state. The result? My hunting partners and I can no longer have our out of state dads or close relatives get a tag every once in a while. Again, OnX is just feeding this machine, as are many other companies.

So for those of you asking? "What other map service do I use?" The choice is up to you. For me? I'm willing to start making sacrifices and simplify how I hunt. I generally big game hunt in one portion of one unit. I don't need a GPS or a map. I can find my way in the dark, in dense fog. I know how to build a fire and keep myself alive if I don't make it to camp before dark. My friends and family can wait for me to get out to hear from me. The InReach usually stays behind. Since unsubscribing to influencers and subscribing to the wilderness, I have become a better hunter and a far better woodsman. Quite honestly, it is refreshing.

For those of you that this falls on deaf ears, so long. If all this fuss is what hunting is, then I'm not a hunter. From now on, I will chose to Hunt Quietly.

An excellent, excellent post. A good creed to live by and thanks for saying so well.

 

[Fowl Play]

Another good reminder on the privacy front…all iPhone users should immediately do the following:

Settings > Privacy & Security > Location Services > Camera > Never

I just turned this off recently. I was shocked at how accurate the “geo tag” was on a number of my photos. More importantly I recently learned that the geo tag follows the picture when you send it to others. A buddy recently sent me a picture of his archery bull and I was able to plug in the iPhone coordinates and find him really easily on BaseMap.

I had no idea that I’ve been spot burning myself for all these years.

I keep the geotag on for my personal uses and going back to find photos. But you can opt to remove the geotag when sending the photo. I can tell you, years ago, some of the original forum software would not automatically remove the EXIF data -- so tons of guys were unknowingly spot burning themselves on the open web.

 

[WKR]

If any of this is true, he will have his day in court.

Kind of violating monopoly laws...

Please Elaborate...
Wasn't aware there are legal implications.

 

[tony]

Best alternative app/map system?

I have Basemap
Here's another thing. Look up backpacker/outdoors magazine. They are in with Gaia and trail forks. Around the holidays they run a crazy special, you get the above mapping programs and all the magazine's, plus whatever else they offer.
It was all like $30.00-40.00.

So I'm confused, Onx guy is taking all your hunting spots for himself?
Gaias maps are rainbow colored?
I guess you have to pick what doesn't upset you as much.
I use base map for hiking, and looking at who owns what. I got it on a Christmas special. Believe you get the whole US for one price. Onx has you buying the states you want?

 

[WKR]

Do you know that he is responsible for actually preventing access? I’d imagine the ranch owners already had access restricted. Was there access prior to him leasing the hunting rights to the ranches?

he is charging people to access the public through his leased land so yes, he is preventing access. Or rather providing access to clients only.

I dont see how prior access matters in this situation. He isn't just a no name guide outfit. He is a self proclaimed advocate for public access, that is using private lands to access landlocked parcels for monetary gain, and restricting access to the public.

 

[robby denning]

Thread is open for discussion

I don’t know if people are taking this as you implying the thread was locked?

I just checked with our mods who are on tonight, and we never locked it

And yes, onX is a sponsor, helping to host your discussion

But if it’s a civil debate, we’re not gonna lock it so I would like to correct those that assumed we did.

OP, If I’m wrong and it was locked, let me know.