Omnia tuning question/feedback

[homebru.trout]

First, yes I have the tuning/tech manual and have read it several times.

I have an Omnia that I got second hand and am discovering incrementally why it was for sale. This particular specimen has had a short, but hard life. When I got it the SET system was damaged, it had a poorly made custom string on it and generally wasn't ready for prime time. I got humpty put back together this weekend with a new upper SET assembly and brand new ABB platinum string set and everything went smoothly but struggling a bit with how to resolve static cam lean issue and start the tuning process. Static cam lean is zero for the bottom cam and the top cam is leaning "in" with bottom of cam leaning slightly toward the riser/ltr.

This bow is my first time tuning a setup for negative or "out" cam lean. Typically I've tuned all of my bowtechs with the far end of the cam leaning away from the riser slightly. Elite wants this one straight or with the innermost portion of the cams leaning slightly away to start.
Tune guide from Elite says to shim the affected cam but I'm accustomed to shimming both cams (and this sort of nullifies their fancy SET system). I'm wondering what the harm is in just using SET to move the cam slightly...yes I'd run out of adjustment on one cam before the other obviously but in my view if I have to max out the SET system I've got bigger issues anyway.

Anyone else had to deal with cam lean issues before tuning from zero? I'm wondering if shimming a single cam is actually the solution here or if I can get away with adjusting lean via SET to start. @sndmn11 did you run into any of this setting up yours or your wife's bow?

 

[sndmn11]

The attached guide is the one you are talking about? (Page 3)

Ours shot out of the box...
I put centershot for the back of the riser in between 7/8" and 13/16" and then measured parallel to the front. It ended up being a few click on the Episolon towards the riser.

I needed to raise the rest a little bit when we tuned broadheads, but left to right I didn't need to play with set or the rest.

They said the LTR and the SET were "zeroed" at the factory before shipping, I'd imagine yours was messed with at some point. If it were mine, I think I'd turn both SET all the way to a right tear, set my centershot at 13/16, then equally turn SET back 1/4 turn at a time until the shaft was parallel. From there see how things line up per that guide, or how it shoots through paper. Then the next check would be for the cable touching the cam as it is drawn.

I am always game to fiddle though if you need help!

 

[homebru.trout]

Hey thanks for the feedback. And for sure the SET system was messed with...it arrived at full right tear and cranked down so hard I busted the head off the bolt trying to recenter it. I did wind up shimming the top cam and while I was doing that noticed that this in fact wound up making the top cam shims just like the bottom...so either it left the factory like that or previous owner's shop got the shims reversed. At any rate I'm now at square one according to the guide...I have significant cable rub on the bottom cam but I'll deal with that after I prove it will tune. I have put SET top and bottom at the middle of the range and the LTR is zeroed to the middle of the adjustment range. I like your suggestion of starting all the way in one direction until I get a parallel center shot.

I'll keep poking at it throughout the week and see where I get to. I may take you up on your offer if I hit a dead end.

Thanks again.

 

[sndmn11]

Hey thanks for the feedback. And for sure the SET system was messed with...it arrived at full right tear and cranked down so hard I busted the head off the bolt trying to recenter it. I did wind up shimming the top cam and while I was doing that noticed that this in fact wound up making the top cam shims just like the bottom...so either it left the factory like that or previous owner's shop got the shims reversed. At any rate I'm now at square one according to the guide...I have significant cable rub on the bottom cam but I'll deal with that after I prove it will tune. I have put SET top and bottom at the middle of the range and the LTR is zeroed to the middle of the adjustment range. I like your suggestion of starting all the way in one direction until I get a parallel center shot.

I'll keep poking at it throughout the week and see where I get to. I may take you up on your offer if I hit a dead end.

Thanks again.

I'll see if I can remember to check where the set is on ours tomorrow.

Take a picture of your shim set up? I'm curious how it compares to ours.

 

[homebru.trout]

I'll see if I can remember to check where the set is on ours tomorrow.

Take a picture of your shim set up? I'm curious how it compares to ours.

There are three shims total top and bottom on my particular bow. Two of the shims on each end are identical in thickness and are the thicker options. There is a single very thin shim either end.

When I started it looked as follows (looking from the rear of the bow)
Top = Limb-Thick-Cam-Thick-Thin-Limb
Bottom = Limb-Thick-Thin-Cam-Thick-Limb
...under the above configuration the bottom cam had zero lean and the top cam was leaning "in" with the bottom of the cam toward the LTR side of the bow. Not sure if the asymmetric shim job was the previous owner or his shop.

After shim adjustments to the top it looked as follows
Top = Limb-Thick-Thin-Cam-Thick-Limb
Bottom = Limb-Thick-Thin-Cam-Thick-Limb
...so now the shims are consistent top and bottom. When I had it taken apart the other day I verified the higher limb deflections were riser side. Under the current config, bottom cam still leaning zero, and now top cam leaning slightly "out". While the orientations are not equal, at least now they individually pass muster with how Elite says to start.

Under this configuration I have heavy cable rub on the lower cam for the first 1/3 of the draw cycle and it touches again at full draw. I can feel it when drawing the bow so this falls into the "heavy cable contact" category in the manual so will have to be addressed at some point.

Given the limb deflections, I'm thinking the logic of static cam lean running out is that the left side deflection will pull the cam straight to slightly "in" at full draw or at least that's what I'm telling myself in my head to make this all make sense. The more I think about it, the more I like your idea of starting full right tear on the SET and just turning it back left to hit parallel on the arrow. This should eliminate the constantly changing centershot annoyance at least partially and get me really close. My only other option would seem to be using SET to adjust the top cam to neutral to match bottom cam, setting centershot 7/8 and crossing my fingers. And the more I work on this bow, the more I love the Deadlock system

It bears noting that what I have on my hands is a previous owner problem...not a bow problem or an issue with Elite themselves. Somebody bought an expensive toy and either they or a shop tech went crazy and applied several hundred dollars worth of tools and zero dollars worth of knowledge or common sense to this thing. I have shot it for a couple sessions and my overall impression at this point boils down to "fast and quiet".

 

[sndmn11]

There are three shims total top and bottom on my particular bow. Two of the shims on each end are identical in thickness and are the thicker options. There is a single very thin shim either end.

When I started it looked as follows (looking from the rear of the bow)
Top = Limb-Thick-Cam-Thick-Thin-Limb
Bottom = Limb-Thick-Thin-Cam-Thick-Limb
...under the above configuration the bottom cam had zero lean and the top cam was leaning "in" with the bottom of the cam toward the LTR side of the bow. Not sure if the asymmetric shim job was the previous owner or his shop.

After shim adjustments to the top it looked as follows
Top = Limb-Thick-Thin-Cam-Thick-Limb
Bottom = Limb-Thick-Thin-Cam-Thick-Limb
...so now the shims are consistent top and bottom. When I had it taken apart the other day I verified the higher limb deflections were riser side. Under the current config, bottom cam still leaning zero, and now top cam leaning slightly "out". While the orientations are not equal, at least now they individually pass muster with how Elite says to start.

Under this configuration I have heavy cable rub on the lower cam for the first 1/3 of the draw cycle and it touches again at full draw. I can feel it when drawing the bow so this falls into the "heavy cable contact" category in the manual so will have to be addressed at some point.

Given the limb deflections, I'm thinking the logic of static cam lean running out is that the left side deflection will pull the cam straight to slightly "in" at full draw or at least that's what I'm telling myself in my head to make this all make sense. The more I think about it, the more I like your idea of starting full right tear on the SET and just turning it back left to hit parallel on the arrow. This should eliminate the constantly changing centershot annoyance at least partially and get me really close. My only other option would seem to be using SET to adjust the top cam to neutral to match bottom cam, setting centershot 7/8 and crossing my fingers. And the more I work on this bow, the more I love the Deadlock system

I think mine are the opposite shims. The pics below is the bottom cam, the string is towards the top of the pic and the riser towards the bottom.


Both bows the SET is identical. ~ 2 full turns of travel. Turning the bolt clockwise to stop, ours came both at 3/4 of a turn counter clockwise; we didn't need to move them to broadhead tune, I went out to over 70 yards. Silver is the position they came from Elite, copper is full travel clockwise.

 

[homebru.trout]

OK this is great news on your SET info. After taking the entire bow apart and reassembling I have...you guessed it...2 full turns of adjustment so I did at least something right. It does look like your shims are opposite mine...I have two shims mod side which I guess I feel ok about since it produces the desired cam orientation.

 

[homebru.trout]

Wanted to chime back in here with an update in case it's helpful to others. I know @sndmn11 has a comprehensive review coming for us but I wanted to summarize my experience with a full teardown and ground up rebuild.

Quick Recap: Bought this as a "mint" catch and release from another board and found the aftermarket string was poorly built (far too thick) affecting performance and the SET system was damaged. Bow was wildly out of spec as well when it arrived with shims installed incorrectly and SET system over-torqued all the way to right tear. Got a replacement SET kit and ordered a new ABB Platinum string and set to work.

Specs:

• 2023 Elite Omnia 70lb, RH, Draw weight is 71.5.
• 28.5 nominal DL per mod settings, using limb stops
• Letoff is currently 75-77...I want this bow to keep me honest.
• Arrow is BEA X-Impact 300 spine, Steel FOCOS, Total length with outsert 28 3/8, Total Weight with 100gr field point is 462 gr. I'm using DCA wraps + 3 fletch Q2i Fusion-II vanes, right helical.

If you're just here for the punchline:
Bareshafts hit with fletched at 7/8 Center shot with SET dead in the middle of its adjustment range. Cams are timed dead even, slightly nock high with arrow running dead down the middle of the Berger hole. I do have slight lower cam contact with the cable at full draw.

After fixing the SET system and installing the new string, I took several runs at initial setup over the course of a week and was pulling my hair out trying to get a properly spined arrow to shoot acceptably. I know you'll probably see/hear this in the full review as well...there are multiple ways to reach your desired end state on this bow in terms of DL, letoff, and overall tune and my frustration was the result of my trying to mix and match all of them.

First, READ THE MANUAL (contact me if you want a copy or find it here, too large to upload)

Second, decide what kind of bow tech you are. Are you a "move the rest" guy? Are you a cam shimmer? Are you typically a yoke tuner on bowtech or hybrid bows? Good. All of these approaches will produce acceptable performance and arrow flight. Just decide which one you are and be that guy...your life will be sooooo much easier.

Third, listen to Elite. In nearly all cases, centershot is going to land 13/16-7/8 and you should NOT be cranking the SET system wildly in either direction.

Finally, please realize that despite my trials and tribulations, you're getting a fantastic bow if you walk into a shop and buy one. It will be pre-adjusted by Elite to a good starting point and your journey will be much easier...alot of what I faced was governed by the condition this bow showed up in. Ultimately I was forced to start from a pile of parts. The advantage is that I now know my equipment inside and out...a fact I place a pretty high value on.

My (Successful) Process:
-Reassemble bow from zero installing new upper set kit and string. Higher deflection limbs go toward the LTR. I left the cams attached to limbs during disassembly and failed to verify cam shim config which was asymmetric on my bow and needed changing later.
-Put sight on and level 2nd axis. Install/verify rest + D loop. Arrow through berger hole, dead level to start, centershot 13/16.
-Verify/adjust cam timing.
-Find middle of SET adjustment range AND MARK IT. If properly configured you should have approx 2 full turns of adjustment. Verify cams static lean is neutral or slightly "out" per manual. They should be approx the same top and bottom
-Shoot through paper. I initially got an ugly tear that was bad enough I inspected shims and wound up changing them to match top and bottom. My shim config is illustrated in a previous post in this thread (1 left, 2 right) and its worth noting that @sndmn11 's shim config is opposite mine.
- Reshoot paper. Perfect fletched flight and nock low + left tear bare shaft.
- Recheck cam timing, advance top cam. Bare shaft still low + left.
-Adjust nocking point to address vertical.
-Move SET 1/8 turn to left tear, move rest to 7/8 --> Not a bullet hole, but close. I don't value paper tuning much anymore and focus instead on bare shaft tuning so out back to the range I went.
-Bareshaft at 20 required correction. Elevation was fine. Windage caused me to move the SET system back to my reference mark at the center of the adjustment range. Done

A note on cable contact:
I chased the cable contact issue for two days. When I started in the draw board, the bottom cam contacted the cable throughout the draw cycle. Fixing the shim config helped but I was still getting a lot of contact. This wound up being an artifact of being in the draw board...presumable due to a very slow draw cycle rapidly loading the lower deflection limb and the bow rocking on the grip a bit. I should have just checked what happened with the bow in my hand as it's a non-issue in shooting situations. Now I have very slight contact at full draw, no apparent serving damage and the bow shoots great.

Overall I'm very pleased with bow performance now that I've got things configured correctly. I haven't chrono'd it yet but its certainly "fast enuff" and is stunningly quiet to my ear.