Off season for the dogs 26

[KurtR]

If you have that much access to and contact with other guys running dogs at the same time then the lower stakes could well be pointless. I've not ever had that luxury on a regular basis

Training days aren’t like test days. I have seen a couple people who’s dogs train great and the wheels fall off when quick decisions need to be made with something on the line.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

The wheels can fall off real quick if they realize the e collar isn't there

 

[IanCOLO]

@KickinNDishin registered her pointer puppy for NAVHDA so she can try Natural Ability. This little dog has the confidence to point outside of shotgun range and is going to be a lot of fun.

Water work will need a lot of improvement.

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I took the mutt just to hang out at the truck, but got invited to work on some backing and steadiness. She will get spayed this weekend, and a big part of me wishes she was a purebred so I could consider breeding her.

Are you going to the NAVHDA training day this Saturday?


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[sndmn11]

Are you going to the NAVHDA training day this Saturday?


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Which chapter? We went up to Frontier WY chapter on the recommendation of more than a few people. My only other NAVHDA experience was 8 years ago at the Rocky Mountain Chapter, and it wasn't positive. I might run one of Andy's shorthairs at the Rocky Mountain Chapter through NA because of his busy schedule though.

 

[IanCOLO]

Which chapter? We went up to Frontier WY chapter on the recommendation of more than a few people. My only other NAVHDA experience was 8 years ago at the Rocky Mountain Chapter, and it wasn't positive. I might run one of Andy's shorthairs at the Rocky Mountain Chapter through NA because of his busy schedule though.

Rocky Mountain Chapter has a training day this upcoming Saturday. They’re busy compared to the Frontier Chapter training days but there are still some good people to help you along once you kind of get the groove of it. I like the Frontier Chapter a lot and smaller chapters where you have a little more freedom to try different things out or run a dog a couple of times if it needs more reps. Platte River Chapter in Nebraska has some really good people in it as well.

I just want to see a Pointer at a training day because it’s one of the ones I haven’t seen yet.


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[jmez]

Pointed 2 ducks and Liza knocked a small covey of huns. Always interesting!!

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[sndmn11]

Rocky Mountain Chapter has a training day this upcoming Saturday. They’re busy compared to the Frontier Chapter training days but there are still some good people to help you along once you kind of get the groove of it. I like the Frontier Chapter a lot and smaller chapters where you have a little more freedom to try different things out or run a dog a couple of times if it needs more reps. Platte River Chapter in Nebraska has some really good people in it as well.

I just want to see a Pointer at a training day because it’s one of the ones I haven’t seen yet.


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Maybe, I hadn't thought about it, because I forgot the brown dog gets spayed Saturday.

 

[KurtR]

You mean the AKC tests or the HRC tests? I have attended HRC tests and, I would say, IMHO, the first two tests aren't that hard. This is just based on a single observation.
I am told that AKC tests are harder.

The one thing I will add is that most of versatile breeds will have relatively tough time beyond HRC Seasoned as the marking and geometric pression isn't their strongest trait.

@sndmn11

May I ask you why run a Pointer in NAVHDA? Outside of the filed portion of the test, they will struggle.
Or are you talking about the Pudelpointer?

Akc senior or HRC seasoned both have alot of moving parts for a new handler to keep straight. I would say master is harder just on the technical standpoint but finished with the gun adds a level of excitement that a lot of dogs struggle with. Ran the grand last fall and that is by far the hardest of all the hunt test with the standards that are expected. One slip and your riding ones and you can’t recover and have to be perfect the other 4 series and then add the upland at the end

 

[VomSteinbruch]

if they realize the e collar isn't there

That is precisely why the new generation of dawg trainers are moving away from the e collar being the primary training device and replacing it with the early conditioning where the e collar is only used a correction tool.

IMHO, I also noticed that the Retriever people use the e collar more often than the other breed owner, even when they train for similar task such as force fetch or blinds.

 

[KurtR]

That is precisely why the new generation of dawg trainers are moving away from the e collar being the primary training device and replacing it with the early conditioning where the e collar is only used a correction tool.

IMHO, I also noticed that the Retriever people use the e collar more often than the other breed owner, even when they train for similar task such as force fetch or blinds.

The ecollar has only ever been for re enforcing known commands . Rex Carr started that with in 70’s and pretty much every program is based on it. If your using the collar to train your doing it wrong. Dogs running at top levels need to be able to think freely to be successful and being worried about pressure doesn’t encourage that.

 

[BucksNBulls]

That is precisely why the new generation of dawg trainers are moving away from the e collar being the primary training device and replacing it with the early conditioning where the e collar is only used a correction tool.

IMHO, I also noticed that the Retriever people use the e collar more often than the other breed owner, even when they train for similar task such as force fetch or blinds.

They are training with a lot more indirect pressure than direct pressure these days. Retrieval denials etc.

 

[VomSteinbruch]

The ecollar has only ever been for re enforcing known commands

Maybe for some, but when I was coming up and was FF-ing my first dog I met quite a few old-timers who did their entire FF and healing program with an e collar. In some instances, the whole basic obedience was achieved through the fear of punishment.

Admittedly, they were quite successful and their dogs performed neatly, but even I noticed that it was the fear that made them work, not their desire to work with you.

I totally get there are some dogs that need to be broken, but I also feel it makes dogs to look for an escape from pressure. As soon as they feel they don't have an e collar they know there is nothing you can do to make them work for you and they quit.

 

[KurtR]

Maybe for some, but when I was coming up and was FF-ing my first dog I met quite a few old-timers who did their entire FF and healing program with an e collar. In some instances, the whole basic obedience was achieved through the fear of punishment.

Admittedly, they were quite successful and their dogs performed neatly, but even I noticed that it was the fear that made them work, not their desire to work with you.

I totally get there are some dogs that need to be broken, but I also feel it makes dogs to look for an escape from pressure. As soon as they feel they don't have an e collar they know there is nothing you can do to make them work for you and they quit.

Who were they i would be interested. Guys like lardy, farmer didn’t teach that and they were winning nationals. Dogs of today could not take the pressure from pre collar training but dogs of today are a lot smarter and the work is substantially harder. The opens from 60’s and 70’s would be an easy master test now. Marc Patton who comes from the bite world has brought a lot of new thinking to the game and he is piling up the all age points

 

[BucksNBulls]

Times have changed.....................Book written in the 70's

 

[Billinsd]

Times have changed.....................Book written in the 70's


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Someone told me the saying was “#7.5 at 80 or #8 at 75”. I didn’t believe him at first, I was shocked, thought he was fooling me. Breeders bred really tough dogs because the training methods were so harsh many decades ago.

 

[Billinsd]

Dogs of today could not take the pressure from pre collar training but dogs of today are a lot smarter and the work is substantially harder.

Dogs today couldn’t take the pressure of the early collars either.

I’ve never heard anyone say that dogs are smarter and training is harder. Why do you think that? You have a whole lot more experience than me.

I’d think training is harder because there is a bigger range of dog temperaments issues with different breeding and of course owners.

To me take a Labrador, I’d prefer the dog to be a bit on the sensitive side that wouldn’t need much pressure. I would not want a soft dog, big difference from sensitive. I’d want the dog to be biddable and have a good prey drive, but not crazy prey drive.

I’d figure a dog like this would be best, easiest to train and hunt with.

I believe the breeding is huge, huge, huge for any breed and of course the trainer and owner must be consistent, fair, and have great timing.
Bill

 

[KurtR]

Dogs today couldn’t take the pressure of the early collars either.

I’ve never heard anyone say that dogs are smarter and training is harder. Why do you think that? You have a whole lot more experience than me.

I’d think training is harder because there is a bigger range of dog temperaments issues with different breeding and of course owners.

To me take a Labrador, I’d prefer the dog to be a bit on the sensitive side that wouldn’t need much pressure. I would not want a soft dog, big difference from sensitive. I’d want the dog to be biddable and have a good prey drive, but not crazy prey drive.

I’d figure a dog like this would be best, easiest to train and hunt with.

I believe the breeding is huge, huge, huge for any breed and of course the trainer and owner must be consistent, fair, and have great timing.
Bill

Every pro you talk to who has been doing it for a while will tell you the dogs are smarter and temperaments have changed in field bred labs. Which people will confuse for being soft as they will shut down with over use of pressure if not done fairly. The dogs of years past only the toughest hardest chargers would not get washed out. Now with how precise the collar is and no more shooting them in the ass with bird shot the dogs that think excel in programs and they are easier to teach and control at the line. Its how it has evolved with the training styles and retriever training is still about 20 years behind IGP and schutzhund but people like Marc Patton and Pat Nolan are opening peoples eyes. Having a dog like malinois that will climb the leash and eat your face makes you learn how to fairly use pressure

 

[VomSteinbruch]

I can't really name the names, but reading the books, forums and talking to old-timers at the club gave me that impression. I also have seen quite a few people doing the training course with e-collar at my own club.

I am not saying it is bad or good, and those guys clearly had successes which I could see with my own eyes.
The e-collar training has almost 100% proven history. If one wants to keep doing what has been done for 40 years, I have no problem with it. I just prefer condition and then pressure. And I like dogs that can take pursue. That's why I have a dog from a German club / testing system.

I am not a Lab guy, but I have somewhat familiar with Malinois as I once wanted to be a K9 guy and run schutzhund. The only reason I didn't get into it was that I was living in an apartment that restricted the size of dogs and the average pup form averagely serious pedigree costs 4k. The EU imports from known pedigrees maybe 7k.

Malinois are very different dogs. They have high prey drive and low stimulus threshold. Every task they do, they do it through these two traits. With this type of a dog, it is easy to want to use pressure. Sometimes it is the only way to tame them. I heard many breeders are rethinking their breeding philosophy where the drive is the top criteria.

I know of two ex K9 trainers who got interested in upland hunting and acquired dogs, one got a Lab and another one got a Small Munsterlander. They both had to adjust their habit of applying e-collars.