Obama Administration Bans Lead Ammo & Sinkers on Federal Lands

[gelton]

Obama Administration to Ban Lead Ammo & Sinkers on Federal Lands

Thought I would post this up here as I haven't seen anyone talking about it. Hopefully Zeinke will put a stop to this insanity:

Outgoing Obama administration bans lead ammo, sinkers on federal lands

One of the last actions of the Obama administration last week was to ban lead ammunition and fishing sinkers on most federal lands. Fishing and hunting advocacy groups are hoping the directive will be overturned by the Trump administration.

Dan Ashe, director of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, issued the decree on Thursday, his final full day in office. It makes lead illegal on national parks, wildlife refuges and any other land administered by the service. Unaltered, the ban will have a major impact on hunting public land, since most ammunition is lead-based.

Outgoing Obama administration bans lead ammo, sinkers on federal lands | NOLA.com

And straight from the horses mouth:

DIRECTOR'S ORDER NO. 219

Subject: USE OF NONTOXIC AMMUNITION AND FISHING TACKLE

Director's Order 219, Use of Nontoxic Ammunition and Fishing Tackle

Wonder where is BHA on this one? Have not heard a peep unless I missed it.

The plan is for it to go into full effect by 2022.

 

[mmw194287]

I guess if they mean "most federal lands in Louisiana" the article might be accurate, but this doesn't apply to "most federal lands"--just those administered by USFWS.

 

[gelton]

I guess if they mean "most federal lands in Louisiana" the article might be accurate, but this doesn't apply to "most federal lands"--just those administered by USFWS.

Not following you...It includes USFWS and BLM lands and is nationwide not State specific.

 

[mfolch]

This is great news! I use non-toxic ammo all the time, and it takes a little getting used to, but otherwise it's perfect. And as a hunter I am happy to make the adjustment and pay a couple cents more every shot, if it means protecting--or at least not poisoning--the environment for my children and for generations to come.

But the 'news' announcement contains a lot of misleading misinformation. No one has banned anything. The FWS has announced plans "to establish procedures and a timeline for expanding the use of nontoxic ammunition and fishing tackle on Service lands, waters, and facilities and for certain types of hunting and fishing regulated by the Service outside of Service lands, waters, and facilities." They have announced an intention to make a plan and timeline to expand the use of nontoxic ammunition and tackle for certain types of hunting and fishing in some select regions under their control...This is a very limited and modest proposal, and they haven't banned anything. I suspect that the most that will come of it will be a set of plans to reduce and eventually eliminate lead use in regions in which especially vulnerable and endangered animals live. All of which would be great. I'd be happy to give up lead if it meant restoring bald eagle populations, etc.

 

[ChrisC]

I am by no means an expert on lead, or ammunition for that matter, but this doesn't seem insane. If we have the opportunity to get toxic materials out of our waters and lands, then great. themeateater.com had an article up the other day basically saying the shortcomings of non-lead ammo is essentially no more with the improvements that have been made. it's only one article, so i cant say for sure if it's true.

If the lethality of non- lead ammo comes into question, i would say that there probably have been more poorly placed shots with lead ammo leading to slow deaths from hunters than there have been slow deaths from non-lead ammo.

again, not an expert, so school me if im wrong.

 

[mmw194287]

Not following you...It includes USFWS and BLM lands and is nationwide not State specific.

I'm not following you. Neither the article or the proposed regulation says anything about BLM lands, only lands administered by the USFWS. I didn't suggest that it only applied to Louisiana, just that the only way this applied to "most federal lands" was if you limited your perspective to the state of Louisiana (where the article originated).

Show me where it says that this applies to anywhere other than "Service (USFWS) lands, waters, and facilities and for certain types of hunting and fishing regulated by the Service outside of Service lands, waters, and facilities."

 

[gelton]

I am certainly not against people choosing to use non toxic ammo, but I dont like edicts and force - they are the antithesis to freedom. If someone wants to start a lead free movement to persuade folks to stop using it fine, but to be forced to use it, without any sound science proving lead is causing declines in other wildlife populations is asinine.

I personally use copper bullets in my 6.8 spc, because I believe for that specific application they are the best option. However, the BC of copper is naturally less than can be achieved with lead. The longer bullet to achieve the same weight forces you to use less powder so the velocities are lower with copper than lead.

Most of all, I have never seen a real study that shows lead is poisoning anything other than ducks, and with the Governments endless intelligence you can shoot doves using lead shot over the same fields and ponds that require you to shoot steel shot during duck and goose seasons. I would argue that more waterfowl are wounded using steel shot than ever died from lead poisoning back when lead was legal.

 

[gelton]

I'm not following you. Neither the article or the proposed regulation says anything about BLM lands, only lands administered by the USFWS. I didn't suggest that it only applied to Louisiana, just that the only way this applied to "most federal lands" was if you limited your perspective to the state of Louisiana (where the article originated).

Show me where it says that this applies to anywhere other than "Service (USFWS) lands, waters, and facilities and for certain types of hunting and fishing regulated by the Service outside of Service lands, waters, and facilities."

iii. Where individual Federal land units administered by other Federal agencies including the National Park Service, the National Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, the Department of Defense, or other agencies, have enacted requirements for the use of nontoxic ammunition or fishing tackle, Regions should adopt such requirements on Service lands, waters and facilities in the same states as those units through amendments to Service hunting and fishing regulations, as appropriate.

 

[mmw194287]

iii. Where individual Federal land units administered by other Federal agencies including the National Park Service, the National Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, the Department of Defense, or other agencies, have enacted requirements for the use of nontoxic ammunition or fishing tackle, Regions should adopt such requirements on Service lands, waters and facilities in the same states as those units through amendments to Service hunting and fishing regulations, as appropriate.

Translation--where other federal agencies have already banned lead in areas that border USFWS lands, local USFWS administrators should adopt those same requirements.

That clause says nothing about new lead bans on non-USFWS administered lands.

 

[backcountry_hunter]

I am certainly not against people choosing to use non toxic ammo, but I dont like edicts and force - they are the antithesis to freedom. If someone wants to start a lead free movement to persuade folks to stop using it fine, but to be forced to use it, without any sound science proving lead is causing declines in other wildlife populations is asinine.

I personally use copper bullets in my 6.8 spc, because I believe for that specific application they are the best option. However, the BC of copper is naturally less than can be achieved with lead. The longer bullet to achieve the same weight forces you to use less powder so the velocities are lower with copper than lead.

Most of all, I have never seen a real study that shows lead is poisoning anything other than ducks, and with the Governments endless intelligence you can shoot doves using lead shot over the same fields and ponds that require you to shoot steel shot during duck and goose seasons. I would argue that more waterfowl are wounded using steel shot than ever died from lead poisoning back when lead was legal.

This is where I'm at.... I live in a state that has been trending this way for a while and I'm not a fan. I shoot all copper but not for environmental reasons. Certain older rifles won't handle an all copper as well, twist rates in some should change to make them as accurate, etc... Think older lever guns specifically but falling blocks/rolling blocks as well.

The reasons are being promoted for human consumption 1st (it's healthier) and for scavenger health 2nd... Experts say a piece of lead the size of a dehydrated grain of rice will kill an eagle. Whether or not that's true I don't know but I do know bald eagles specifically made a tremendous comeback when lead was being shot at everything including waterfowl. It's a moot point to take into effect the health of the animal you are pursuing as you're clearly trying to kill it anyway.

IMO states should promote the use of copper but I do not like being told I have to shoot it, especially out of a gun that might not have an ammo company chambering rounds for it in all copper. I also remember shooting waterfowl with lead (before steel was mandated) and I can say with absolute certainty my bird recovery was significantly higher with lead.

 

[Jimbob]

I think no lead for shotguns and waterfowl is a great idea, it has been the law for almost 20 yrs in Ontario. Waterfowl hunters shoot a bunch and definitely leave a good chunk of lead behind. However big game hunting with lead bullets have zero effect on the environment. I think Ontario has it right with allowing rifles and upland hunting to use lead bullets but waterfowls must used lead free non-toxic bullets.

 

[jmez]

There are very good peer reviewed studies linking lead poisoning to scavenger animals. I'll link a few abstracts at the end of the post. Waterfowl are targeted as bald eagles tend to follow the waterfowl migration. Environmental contamination isn't as big of a deal as the dead, uncovered birds containing the lead. There aren't a lot of doves that go uncovered, you hit them they fall down. Not the same for waterfowl.

The problem with lead, or any heavy metal, is that once you have it in your system it never leaves. If you continue to get more, even little bits, over time it will accumulate to toxic levels. As it accumulates it can and will cause chronic illness and debilitation prior to getting to a critical toxic level that causes quick death. It is known as an accumulator that just keeps increasing with every step up the food chain.

High risk of lead contamination for scavengers in an area with high moose hunting success. - PubMed - NCBI

Lead exposure in bald eagles from big game hunting, the continental implications and successful mitigation efforts. - PubMed - NCBI

The ecotoxicology of lead shot and lead fishing weights. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[tttoadman]

I am certainly not against people choosing to use non toxic ammo, but I dont like edicts and force - they are the antithesis to freedom. If someone wants to start a lead free movement to persuade folks to stop using it fine, but to be forced to use it, without any sound science proving lead is causing declines in other wildlife populations is asinine.

I am a fan of a total lead ban because I see no reason for it other than people digging their heels in. The statement above makes me go "uhhh?" All of your arguments seem reasonable. I just find it odd that a sportsman who loves wildlife and the wilderness would choose to use "toxic" ammo. I don't see why we even get to a point where we try to justify shooting lead, when simply not doing it is an easy option. I think this issue is one of the easiest places to find common ground with environmental efforts which will put hunting in a better light to anti's or others on the fence.

 

[ChrisS]

... with the Governments endless intelligence you can shoot doves using lead shot over the same fields and ponds that require you to shoot steel shot during duck and goose seasons.

"e. The Assistant Director, Migratory Birds, in consultation with National Flyway Councils and individual states, will establish a process to phase in a requirement for the use of nontoxic ammunition for recreational hunting of mourning doves and other upland game birds."

I would argue that more waterfowl are wounded using steel shot than ever died from lead poisoning back when lead was legal.

Show your work. A lot people seem to think that scientists and ecologists are a bunch of yahoos that just make shit up like you just did. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Beendare]

I'm highly suspect of Obama as he has already left bags of Doodoo on Trumps doorstep with the mobilizing troops in Poland, pardoning 1715 drug dealers and kicking Israel in the nads on the way out the door (among other things).

The lead ban is in full swing here in Ca and I've seen cases of junk science justifying the ban.

When a guy like Mez thinks the ban is a good thing....I will have to reconsider my stance.

I still don't get how a fishing sinker is going to find its way into the food chain.....

 

[LongWayAround]

Call me a liberal but I don't have a single f*¢k to give about being able to shoot lead or not.

It's not about freedom. You already have to play by the rules to hunt legally. Regulating ammunition is just an extension of that.

 

[Muley Buck]

I am probably an ass and an idiot for saying this but, last time I checked lead IS a naturally occurring substance on this planet. As is oil or anything else deemed "toxic". Too much of almost anything kills animals and plants. To me it is insignificant. I eat the same animal killed by a lead bullet that the scavengers do. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I haven't heard of the gobs of hunters(or one for that matter) dropping dead of lead poisoning due to his kill in the field. I think non lead ammo is fineif not great, just dont force it. Call me what you will, but that's my take on it.

 

[LongWayAround]

I'm highly suspect of Obama as he has already left bags of Doodoo on Trumps doorstep with the mobilizing troops in Poland, pardoning 1715 drug dealers and kicking Israel in the nads on the way out the door (among other things).

The lead ban is in full swing here in Ca and I've seen cases of junk science justifying the ban.

When a guy like Mez thinks the ban is a good thing....I will have to reconsider my stance.

I still don't get how a fishing sinker is going to find its way into the food chain.....

Obama cuts short sentences of 330 more drug offenders | New York Post

Non-violent drug offenders don't belong in long-term incarceration to begin with. Not sure what that has to do with lead shot...

 

[LongWayAround]

I am probably an ass and an idiot for saying this but, last time I checked lead IS a naturally occurring substance on this planet. As is oil or anything else deemed "toxic". Too much of almost anything kills animals and plants. To me it is insignificant. I eat the same animal killed by a lead bullet that the scavengers do. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I haven't heard of the gobs of hunters(or one for that matter) dropping dead of lead poisoning due to his kill in the field. I think non lead ammo is fineif not great, just dont force it. Call me what you will, but that's my take on it.

I'm guessing here, but you probably cut the shot out? As it turns out, animals don't have that knowledge.

 

[gelton]

"e. The Assistant Director, Migratory Birds, in consultation with National Flyway Councils and individual states, will establish a process to phase in a requirement for the use of nontoxic ammunition for recreational hunting of mourning doves and other upland game birds."

Show your work. A lot people seem to think that scientists and ecologists are a bunch of yahoos that just make shit up like you just did. It just doesn't work that way.

"Show my work" I didnt quote from any work, I said I would argue...anyone that hunted ducks/geese with lead shot vs. steel shot would say the same...did you?

And if you did, and you claim steel is just as an effective killer as lead then you are lying to yourself.