NRL realism

[Flyjunky]

I’ve been thinking about trying the skills division at a match that will be close to me this summer. A couple days ago I was talking about it with a friend of mine over a few beers. I was explaining to him what the matches were all about, how they worked, divisions, etc. I was saying the matches were designed to best replicate hunting situations and it could sharpen our skills instead of just going out into the mountains to shoot.

As I was explaining everything he said, “how is that a realistic hunting experience?”. As we talked about it more I started to wonder about this myself.

On a hunt who carries rifles up to 16lbs? I know there are other divisions but seems to me most people in these matches are gaming the system to get as close to 12lbs as possible. The 12-16lb class gun is nothing but a truck gun, if that. Do most people actually use their hunting rifle for these matches? Who carries 2-3 bags hanging off or inside their pack? Besides that who also brings their tac table in addition to all this other stuff? Now, the one that really confused us, who can hunt with a 10rnd mag? The power factor minimum seems odd as well. Other than this forum, does nobody hunt with a smaller cartridge than a 6.5 creed shooting the 143? There’s a few other things but those were the main things we talked about.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m in no way shape or form bashing the matches. It’s just billed as a “Hunter” style match but seems at odds to that in many ways.

With all that said, I’m going to be at the 2 Oregon matches if I can swing it.

 

[180ls1]

Just go with your hunting setup, unchanged. They have a non-competitive option.

That's what I did on a 3d shoot. Shot like I was killing real animals, not plastic ones with dots.

 

[Fetty Wapiti]

I have been around them and the matches are a blast. Do they mimic hunting situations? In some regards yes, but as far as equipment no, not at all. It would be great to see all the bells and whistles stripped away and the weight limit reduced for the light division. Either that or make an ultra light/stripped hunter division. Folks are simply too reliant on equip and the rifles are a far cry from what most would hunt with. I will be competing this year, but wish it was more hunter oriented. As the sport grows I would imagine things will adapt. Lighter weight divisions, tripod/bag regs, electronics limitations, etc. would be wonderful and truly test the skills of the competitors more than the depth of their pocket books.

 

[Flyjunky]

Just go with your hunting setup, unchanged. They have a non-competitive option.

That's what I did on a 3d shoot. Shot like I was killing real animals, not plastic ones with dots.

That’s what I’m going to do, use one of my normal hunting rifles.

I was just saying that if this is truly supposed to be about sharpening shooting skills for hunting, I’m not sure how realistic these matches are. For example, building a shooting position and shooting from it with a 12lb rifle is no way the same as shooting an 8.5lb rifle.

 

[wind gypsy]

I’ve been thinking about trying the skills division at a match that will be close to me this summer. A couple days ago I was talking about it with a friend of mine over a few beers. I was explaining to him what the matches were all about, how they worked, divisions, etc. I was saying the matches were designed to best replicate hunting situations and it could sharpen our skills instead of just going out into the mountains to shoot.

As I was explaining everything he said, “how is that a realistic hunting experience?”. As we talked about it more I started to wonder about this myself.

On a hunt who carries rifles up to 16lbs? I know there are other divisions but seems to me most people in these matches are gaming the system to get as close to 12lbs as possible. The 12-16lb class gun is nothing but a truck gun, if that. Do most people actually use their hunting rifle for these matches?

If you put a suppressor and a bipod on a "hunting rifle" it isn't that hard to be approaching 12# or at least over 10#.

Who carries 2-3 bags hanging off or inside their pack? Besides that who also brings their tac table in addition to all this other stuff? Now, the one that really confused us, who can hunt with a 10rnd mag? The power factor minimum seems odd as well. Other than this forum, does nobody hunt with a smaller cartridge than a 6.5 creed shooting the 143? There’s a few other things but those were the main things we talked about.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m in no way shape or form bashing the matches. It’s just billed as a “Hunter” style match but seems at odds to that in many ways.

With all that said, I’m going to be at the 2 Oregon matches if I can swing it.

Not uncommon to hunt with a 3 rd mag but use 10rd at the range. Doesn't typically impact the execution of shooting the rifle.

Yes, NRL hunter is gamed like any other shooting discipline. It is what you make of it. If you're just going to shoot skills anyway nobody is forcing anyone to game it and a guy could very well shoot it like they hunt if their pride isn't in the way. I've squaded with @Jimbee and @rharbaugh at 1 days when they did exactly that and used their packs and shit they'd actually be hunting with rather than tripods. You're going to want a frame pack at the least to build some seated positions with. The finding, ranging, engaging on the clock, not always knowing what your shooting position will be prior to finding the target, and a little bigger targets have as much to do with the "hunting" comparisons as the rifle restrictions do.

There is no power factor in skills and no power factor in 1 day competitions.

 

[Flyjunky]

I have been around them and the matches are a blast. Do they mimic hunting situations? In some regards yes, but as far as equipment no, not at all. It would be great to see all the bells and whistles stripped away and the weight limit reduced for the light division. Either that or make an ultra light/stripped hunter division. Folks are simply too reliant on equip and the rifles are a far cry from what most would hunt with. I will be competing this year, but wish it was more hunter oriented. As the sport grows I would imagine things will adapt. Lighter weight divisions, tripod/bag regs, electronics limitations, etc. would be wonderful and truly test the skills of the competitors more than the depth of their pocket books.

Exactly what we were talking about. I’d like to see more realistic divisions as well.

 

[Flyjunky]

If you put a suppressor and a bipod on a "hunting rifle" it isn't that hard to be approaching 12# or at least over 10#.

Not uncommon to hunt with a 3 rd mag but use 10rd at the range. Doesn't typically impact the execution of shooting the rifle.

True, but what does a 10rnd mag have to do with hunting situations? It would seem more realistic to have to eject a mag after 4 rounds and put in a new one.

Yes, NRL hunter is gamed like any other shooting discipline. It is what you make of it. If you're just going to shoot skills anyway nobody is forcing anyone to game it and a guy could very well shoot it like they hunt if their pride isn't in the way. I've squaded with @Jimbee and @rharbaugh at 1 days when they did exactly that and used their packs and shit they'd actually be hunting with rather than tripods. You're going to want a frame pack at the least to build some seated positions with. The finding, ranging, engaging on the clock, not always knowing what your shooting position will be prior to finding the target, and a little bigger targets have as much to do with the "hunting" comparisons as the rifle restrictions do.

I totally agree and what I’m saying. If this is billed as “Hunter” shouldn’t it be closer to actually hunting.

There is no power factor in skills and no power factor in 1 day competitions.

Yes, and I plan on shooting those to get my feet wet this year.

 

[MeatInTheFreezer]

Just go with your hunting setup, unchanged. They have a non-competitive option.

That's what I did on a 3d shoot. Shot like I was killing real animals, not plastic ones with dots.

Right. I see things like NRLHunter as a platform to compete with myself and have a venue in which to test my own gear and abilities. It can be easy to get sucked into scores and all that, but I want to see where Im at personally. After doing one match, the next one I do will be strictly with hunting gun and gear ONLY. For example, my rear bag will be my bag of game bags, not a special shooting bag. Also, I will only shoot off a a tripod Im willing to haul around hunting. I will also push myself to use existing things in nature to create a shooting rest. I think this will give me my most realistic hunting range I should be shooting. I do think NRLHunter should add in a stage or two that requires you to shoot off hand standing or off your knee to simulate those super common hunting scenarios.

 

[180ls1]

That’s what I’m going to do, use one of my normal hunting rifles.

I was just saying that if this is truly supposed to be about sharpening shooting skills for hunting, I’m not sure how realistic these matches are. For example, building a shooting position and shooting from it with a 12lb rifle is no way the same as shooting an 8.5lb rifle.

Yeah, people want to win a competition more than they want to improve their skill set where it actually matters. I too am competitive so I get the temptation.

One thing that helped me is the group I was with all shot their hunting setups completely unchanged. There is also a very good chance we stacked more animals than any other group there.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

So this whole NRL hunter thing was brought on after Hornady hosted a steel shooting challenge in Colorado a few years ago now. The original ideas that Travis had were well intended but too many "PRS folks" got into it and have since had a big say in the overall formatting. The only things similar to hunting that these things are for me are...

.Targets shaped like animals and sometimes (rarely) painted to blend into terrain
.Timed shots from potentially "not flat" shooting positions
.Cross canyon and up-hill/down-hill steep-ish angle shots in some cases
.Having a reliable spotter calling hard dope and wind for the shooter in some cases

They aren't perfect and the equipment being used by a lot of the "competitive" guys now is a bit silly to me, but overall I think most folks would learn a few things by trying one out.

 

[MeatInTheFreezer]

So this whole NRL hunter thing was brought on after Hornady hosted a steel shooting challenge in Colorado a few years ago now. The original ideas that Travis had were well intended but too many "PRS folks" got into it and have since had a big say in the overall formatting. The only things similar to hunting that these things are for me are...

.Targets shaped like animals and sometimes (rarely) painted to blend into terrain
.Timed shots from potentially "not flat" shooting positions
.Cross canyon and up-hill/down-hill steep-ish angle shots in some cases
.Having a reliable spotter calling hard dope and wind for the shooter in some cases

They aren't perfect and the equipment being used by a lot of the "competitive" guys now is a bit silly to me, but overall I think most folks would learn a few things by trying one out.

Yep. Just try one!

 

[huntnful]

I just decided to try and shoot one as well. I will absolutely only be bringing the same things I carry hunting.

Exo K4
Hatch Outwest 27” bipod
Small rear bag
Glassing tripod

I just want to get more familiar with my own gear and learning more positional stuff and building positions in different terrain.

I think it’ll be a great learning tool for hunting, if you just treat it and shoot it like you’re hunting.


PRS and NRL gets used as example all the time on hit rates and small calibers dominating.

Yet two of the most dominant PRS and NRL shooters, who are also avid hunters, actually hunt with braked 6.5 PRC’s and 300 Normas.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I've never shot one either but I'd like to, I'm just not really a solo experience kinda guy. You interested in shooting the La Grand one as a team? May as well be in it for the bacon.

 

[wind gypsy]

PRS and NRL gets used as example all the time on hit rates and small calibers dominating.

Yet two of the most dominant PRS and NRL shooters, who are also avid hunters, actually hunt with braked 6.5 PRC’s and 300 Normas.

and Leupolds.

And damnit, lets not turn this into a small vs big cartridge or leupold thread!

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m in no way shape or form bashing the matches. It’s just billed as a “Hunter” style match but seems at odds to that in many ways.

I feel the same way. It could be fun to add some competitive stress in a game format, but it is really contrived, due to all the points you brought up.

 

[id_jon]

It's a game that is really fun to play, that won't make you worse at shooting. There's some hunting crossover. For it to also be what it is, a competition where people are scored and get prizes based on their scores, it HAS to be contrived to a certain point. You can want something more realistic, and I do too, but anything more realistic is also going to be way less fun, get way less industry support, and not be sustainable.

Also, gamification of gear in open divisions is what drives innovation with new products. I think the best thing NRL could do is lower the weight limits, or make a combined limit of all your support gear. But there would be some major pushback on that from current competitors I bet. It'd probably have to come with an increased target size too.

 

[huntnful]

and Leupolds.

And damnit, lets not turn this into a small vs big cartridge or leupold thread!

Haha oh true!! But they aren’t sponsored by cartridges lol.

And I legit wasn’t trying to spark that again. I was pointing out that if it was solely for replicating hunting, people would use their hunting rifles. But that’s not the case with the top shooters. They don’t even hunt with the cartridges that they compete with.

 

[id_jon]

Haha oh true!! But they aren’t sponsored by cartridges lol.

And I legit wasn’t trying to spark that again. I was pointing out that if it was solely for replicating hunting, people would use their hunting rifles. But that’s not the case with the top shooters. They don’t even hunt with the cartridges that they compete with.

Match directors would absolutely hate them competing with 300 prcs lol. It's one thing when a handful of 50% shooters bring a magnum to a match, but if even 1 or 2 guys that hit 95%(currently with 6.5cms anyway) were hammering their targets with a magnum...

 

[hereinaz]

It replicates find, range, build a position and execute the shot. The time and scoring adds pressure.

If you don’t gamify it, it’s not a game, it’s training. But, make it a game too.

Since ancient times games and martial arts mimic war and hunting. Focus on the way it can teach you, not what it can’t do.

And, after participating, you will gain an appreciation for the riflemanship of the winners, even if they do gamify it.

I know of a top finisher who runs an ultralight Savage factory rifle in 6.5 creed who still smokes 95% of the class. Running his “gamified” 25 creed only makes a difference of at most a few places in the finish.

 

[Macintosh]

I figure that nothing that isnt actually hunting wont be contrived to a large degree. Skeet, trap and even sporting clays are nothing like bird hunting, but they’re still good practice. I would write the nrl rule book differently, but I didnt. The only truly odd thing to me is that there isnt a sporter division, as I think even 12lb is considered a heavy hunting rifle even by most folks that like heavy hunting rifles. Some sort of weight-based handicap system involving both rifle and gear might go a long way toward encouraging more people to play with actual hunting gear; otherwise it’s just “on-sight prs”. But ultimately I guess if you want to use any competitive format it’s going to get gamed, so you either do it your way and dont worry about anyone else’s score, you game it along with everyone else and reap the benefit of working on positions and skills under time, or you find a different way to practice.