Nose to string different than Kisser Button?

[nubraskan]

You made a drawing stating you must change your anchor to accommodate the housing moving for elevation. You then stated moving the housing for windage doesn't need an anchor change. I've asked that contradiction to be resolved a few times


There ya go...
You are viewing the peep as a miniscule point that can only allow a view in the finest parameter oh however your brain works. It is not .000001 of a degree, it is at least 10 degrees of viewing angle. It is a hoop and not a micron of a dot that provides two cones of vision on each side of the peep rather a single line.

Did you solve for the degree of angle yet in the sight adjustment? We know that the peep allows at least a 10degree window, and we know the human eye can rotate vertically at least 120degrees, so we are still within the realm of possibility...

Now I understand what you're trying to say about windage, I didn't mention it because I did not realize what you were trying to point out, so apologies for unintentionally ignoring it but I haven't contradicted myself still to my knowledge. To answer your question though, for windage you're not moving your sight significantly for that factor. Your anchor wouldn't vertically but you would still have to vary the anchor pressure / distance against your face horizontally. It's the exact same scenario as the vertical adjustment but to a much lesser degree since you're not moving it nearly as significantly.

You can't solve for the angle without knowing all variables, and there is no need to anyways for the reasons I'll lay out below. I also understand what you're saying about the viewing angles. You're correct, peeps allow for varying degrees of angle allowance to account for different draw lengths, ATA lengths, and string rotation forgiveness.

Again, I also understand the peep isn't a perfectly miniscule point, but any misalignment of any amount between the target, front sight, and peep will cause the arrow to not hit perfectly behind your pin. The amount would obviously vary depending on the misalignment. Your peep and sight should always be a "circle within a circle" and centered as perfectly as you are capable of achieving.

Imagine the original situation I laid out above, if all else is initially fixed perfectly at the 20 yard target (sight, anchor, peep, etc), and you just slide your sight down with everything else in the same position, obviously your arrow doesn't change course. Your sight would be off on all targets, but because you maintained perfect alignment you would still hit the 20 and would hit low at 100. Next, you raise your bow up to realign the sight that you slid down earlier back on to the target, but let's keep your anchor exactly the same. This also raises your peep up slightly, correct? As your peep raise up slightly, it would look closer to a sideways venn diagram than a circle perfectly centered within a circle. Continuing on, since your eye can't vertically raise up, if you wanted to look through your peep now you would have to rotate your eye up slightly, as you mentioned. However, as you did that, you would see that your line of sight and peep is now not in line with the target or bow sight. Your eye which is now rotated to be aligned to your peep, would be looking above your target and slider sight. As you know, if your peep and sight are not framed together and coaxial, your arrow will not hit exactly where your pin is. So to move your peep back onto the coaxial line of your target and slider sight, you would have to move your anchor point down some distance. As you move your anchor position down, your peep would come back down into alignment and your eye can rotate back down onto the target and front sight.

Now, does your anchor point change enough for you to notice? Maybe not depending on your setup and how fast your bow is. At my house I can immediately go from 20 to 100+ yards, and it's definitely noticeable how much my anchor shifts because I shift targets without any setup (other than sliding the sight). How much of an anchor shift for me personally? It's about 1 finger width or slightly less.

 

[sndmn11]

Now I understand what you're trying to say about windage, I didn't mention it because I did not realize what you were trying to point out, so apologies for unintentionally ignoring it but I haven't contradicted myself still to my knowledge. To answer your question though, for windage you're not moving your sight significantly for that factor. Your anchor wouldn't vertically but you would still have to vary the anchor pressure / distance against your face horizontally. It's the exact same scenario as the vertical adjustment but to a much lesser degree since you're not moving it nearly as significantly.

Still contradicting, I'll leave it at this. You guys have said it is impossible to move the housing and maintain the same anchor. Impossible is absolute, not "well this instance you can move it insignificantly". This is the same application as a single pin scope shooter who moves their housing for every single yardage. It must be significant to move that single pin every time otherwise they wouldn't do it. That shooter comes to full draw differently every time? I am certain your bow sight, just like mine, can achieve the same amount of windage travel as elevation. I've never ever come across, "you adjusted your windage, now you need to anchor off your face".

Next, you raise your bow up to realign the sight that you slid down earlier back on to the target, but let's keep your anchor exactly the same. This also raises your peep up slightly, correct?.

No, your peep sight effectively moves down with proper form.

Your anchor is from your bow hand through to your back elbow and also includes your torso. That should be a constant. To adjust for elevation (distance/uphill/downhill) you should be pivoting near the waist and maintaining everything from there up.

It sounds like you are raising/lowering your bow side only, putting the pivot point at the nock of the arrow. I gather this from your description of the peep moving up when raising the bow up.

 

[nubraskan]

Still contradicting, I'll leave it at this. You guys have said it is impossible to move the housing and maintain the same anchor. Impossible is absolute, not "well this instance you can move it insignificantly". This is the same application as a single pin scope shooter who moves their housing for every single yardage. It must be significant to move that single pin every time otherwise they wouldn't do it. That shooter comes to full draw differently every time? I am certain your bow sight, just like mine, can achieve the same amount of windage travel as elevation. I've never ever come across, "you adjusted your windage, now you need to anchor off your face".


No, your peep sight effectively moves down with proper form.

Your anchor is from your bow hand through to your back elbow and also includes your torso. That should be a constant. To adjust for elevation (distance/uphill/downhill) you should be pivoting near the waist and maintaining everything from there up.

It sounds like you are raising/lowering your bow side only, putting the pivot point at the nock of the arrow. I gather this from your description of the peep moving up when raising the bow up.

Last response from me too.

I don't know what bow sight you have, but mine absolutely does not move much in windage shot to shot. You set your arrow distance 13/16" off the riser and make very minor adjustments after that. I slide my sight vertically much much more. However, yes, when you're sliding your sight vertically you have a different anchor point each time at different yardages, but it is very negligible from say 20 to 30 yards. There's no way I would be able to notice my anchor shifting at that small of a distance change.

Just pivoting at the waist on it's own doesn't work. It's natural to pivot back slightly at longer distances, but it won't align your peep to your sight or target. It still leads to the same issues that I laid out above and you have to move your peep and anchor down to align it back with your target.

You're either not aligning your peep and sight correctly, or you aren't sliding your sight enough to notice an anchor point shift. When you tilt your bow, your peep has to move up or down and that shifts your release / anchor point on your face. Try sliding your sight up, see where your anchor is and align everything to target. Now slide your sight waaaay down, past the point where it would make arrow contact. Now see where your anchor hand sits when your sight, peep, and target are all in alignment. If your anchor didn't shift, you're a magician in my book and probably a much better shot than I am

 

[Kularrow]

I can’t wait until Zac sees all this lol

 

[sndmn11]

Last response from me too.

Don't leave us hanging! You never engineered out the degree of angle required to resolve the trajectory.

 

[nubraskan]

Don't leave us hanging! You never engineered out the degree of angle required to resolve the trajectory.

lol fine, since I don't have all the variables at hand I'll have to measure it this weekend on my personal bow. In return you have to try out what I asked here:
"Try sliding your sight up (to 15 or 20 yards), see where your anchor is and align everything to target. Now slide your sight waaaay down, past the point where it would make arrow contact. Now see where your anchor hand sits when your sight, peep, and target are all in alignment. If your anchor didn't shift, you're a magician in my book and probably a much better shot than I am"

 

[BBob]

Keep on bending light waves, I'm out.

 

[Billy Goat]

Don't leave us hanging! You never engineered out the degree of angle required to resolve the trajectory.

It's not a degree, it's a line.





Keep moving goal posts, or your anchor.....


Ok,maybe now I'm done

 

[Reburn]

 

[3forks]

Hate to bring this discussion back up, but I ran across this George Ryals video today, and at the 7:20 mark - George explains exactly what’s been debated in this discussion.

Also, this video at the 1:20 mark:

 

[jimh406]

Hate to bring this discussion back up, but I ran across this George Ryals video today

No offense, but trying to describe his opinion on video doesn't make it any more or less true.

 

[3forks]

No offense, but trying to describe his opinion on video doesn't make it any more or less true.

No offense taken!

But, as you probably know - George is a well respected pro, coach, and works with many other pro and national team athletes… I have a hard time believing that he’s all wrong about what we’re discussing or that the athletes he coaches would keep using him if his concept on a fundamental thing like anchoring was way off.

 

[jimh406]

No offense taken!

But, as you probably know - George is a well respected pro, coach, and works with many other pro and national team athletes… I have a hard time believing that he’s all wrong about what we’re discussing or that the athletes he coaches would keep using him if his concept on a fundamental thing like anchoring was way off.

I don't know him or of him at all. I did read his Bio because I was curious. I'm not saying that the people he coaches can't hit the targets regularly. However, I've also shot with people that shot true bowhunter who never had a consistent draw and still could hit the target.