Newer "Active Insulation" vs Fleece + Wind Shirt

[Leatherneck]

Is the newer "active insulation" like Polartec Alpha and the Patagonia Nano-Air type jackets really any better than a fleece plus breathable wind jacket like a BD Alpine Start? I've been trying to research this. As far as I can tell the active insulation dries slightly faster and is lighter, whereas the fleece plus windshirt is more durable in the long run. Can anyone that has experience with both be able to give their opinion?

 

[HaydenLane]

I can’t speak to long term durability, but the active insulation does not replace the windshirt. It’s a one for one fleece replacement. I’ve only used the Kelvin Active Jacket, so that’s all I’ll speak to. It’s warmer for weight than fleece, dries faster, can compress down more in the pack, and seems to breathe better than fleece of similar warmth. That breathability means it doesn’t do much of anything for wind.

 

[Lowg08]

I have been in the same dilemma but actually found a possible alternative. My upper body system for down in the teens is pretty simple. Kiln, Klamath/furnace, fleece then chamberlain.

I have been using the old school Walmart fleece zip up jacket. Non of my stuff has the windstopper. So I just found the natural gear winterceptor fleece. It’s on the way so no real feedback yet but maybe it will fit your needs also

 

[mtwarden]

save the windshirt and ditch the fleece

the active insulation replaces the fleece- it's warmer for the weight, breathes better and dries faster (if you get the right active layer)

 

[Rokwiia]

I've read of insulation compression in some cases with the new active insulation.

Here is an excellent article about this topic. To see the final results of the review you need to be a BPL member. Even without that, you get a ton of information about this subject:

https://backpackinglight.com/synthetic-insulated-jacket-reviews-state-of-the-market-report/

 

[Deli]

save the windshirt and ditch the fleece

the active insulation replaces the fleece- it's warmer for the weight, breathes better and dries faster (if you get the right active layer)

Have recommendations on ones that are good and ones that don't work well? I just got a kenai vest to try as my active layer over base with a windshirt but curious on other options even for skiing or winter hiking. I still would have a hard time leaving my grid fleece behind.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[mtwarden]

sadly the Patagonia Nano Air Light has been discontinued (the reason I ended buying a second)- occasionally found on eBay, poshmark and the like

the Sitka Active Hoody is a good one and still available, it's not a vest, but not a jacket either- uses half sleeves, I found in early season it's actually just about right. I think the Active jacket is similar fabric and insulation, but lacks a hood- I use my hoods on all my garments a lot, so I passed on the jacket

major sticker shock, but Sitka's Arrowhead line offers a jacket with Polartec Alpha Direct and a very breathable outer fabric; it's offered by a few vendors and occasionally on sale

it's a very (very) good active insulation piece

https://www.sitkaarrowhead.com/products/midlayers/midlayer-hoody-mdwi/coyote

I had several Polartec Alpha jackets when they first came out and the manufacturers completely blew it by using traditional fabrics on the inner and outer- not breathable, so completely nixed the advantage of Alpha. I think most have learned and now most Alpha (and Alpha Direct) jackets use more breathable fabrics.

there are a few cottage shops that offer "naked" Alpha Direct garments- this work well when there is zero wind or combined with a windhsirt, but they are too fragile imo for hunting (without an outer layer)

 

[Lawnboi]

sadly the Patagonia Nano Air Light has been discontinued (the reason I ended buying a second)- occasionally found on eBay, poshmark and the like

the Sitka Active Hoody is a good one and still available, it's not a vest, but not a jacket either- uses half sleeves, I found in early season it's actually just about right. I think the Active jacket is similar fabric and insulation, but lacks a hood- I use my hoods on all my garments a lot, so I passed on the jacket

major sticker shock, but Sitka's Arrowhead line offers a jacket with Polartec Alpha Direct and a very breathable outer fabric; it's offered by a few vendors and occasionally on sale

it's a very (very) good active insulation piece

https://www.sitkaarrowhead.com/products/midlayers/midlayer-hoody-mdwi/coyote

I had several Polartec Alpha jackets when they first came out and the manufacturers completely blew it by using traditional fabrics on the inner and outer- not breathable, so completely nixed the advantage of Alpha. I think most have learned and now most Alpha (and Alpha Direct) jackets use more breathable fabrics.

there are a few cottage shops that offer "naked" Alpha Direct garments- this work well when there is zero wind or combined with a windhsirt, but they are too fragile imo for hunting (without an outer layer)

Question for you seeing as it sounds like you do some high output work in the cold often.

I’m looking for a more versatile layer for XC skiing here in WI. I try to get out regardless or weather so temps from above freezing to -20 are all possibilities. Up until now iv pretty much used a synthetic base layer, Sitka mid weight mainly, topped off with a fleece, either mountain hardware or Sitka traverse. In cold cold I’m using an Eddie Bauer something wind breaker deal and it’s like wearing a garbage bag by the end. Im wondering what you think an active insulation jacket would do in an environment like this. I often ski for 5-10 miles and by the end my outer is soaked. Active insulation help transfer moisture more than fleece? And any other recommendations? I’m not stuck on a hunting brandjust don’t like bright colors.

As of now I’m looking at the kelvin active, it’s pricy even with a discount.

 

[mtwarden]

my backcountry ski/snowshoe “uniform” is a very light base layer (Sitka Core LWT/OR Echo), the Nano Light pullover and a windshirt. When the temps are going to be teens and below I switch out the lightweight base layers for Patagonia thermal weight ones (grid fleece, but lighter weight than their R1 stuff)

As the Nano Light is hard to find, the Sitka Kelvin Lite should work if it’s the same weight Alpha and same fabric outer-I’d double check with Sitka.

As you’re probably not busting much brush, the other possibility is one of the “naked” Alpha Direct pieces (in conjunction with a base layer and windshirt).

I’ve never used that style, but from what I’ve read, they work (just have to be somewhat careful with them as they can snag easily).

Here’s one, I think there are a few more

https://superiorfleece.com/products/mens-brule-hoodie

 

[Bearsears]

Question for you seeing as it sounds like you do some high output work in the cold often.

I’m looking for a more versatile layer for XC skiing here in WI. I try to get out regardless or weather so temps from above freezing to -20 are all possibilities. Up until now iv pretty much used a synthetic base layer, Sitka mid weight mainly, topped off with a fleece, either mountain hardware or Sitka traverse. In cold cold I’m using an Eddie Bauer something wind breaker deal and it’s like wearing a garbage bag by the end. Im wondering what you think an active insulation jacket would do in an environment like this. I often ski for 5-10 miles and by the end my outer is soaked. Active insulation help transfer moisture more than fleece? And any other recommendations? I’m not stuck on a hunting brandjust don’t like bright colors.

As of now I’m looking at the kelvin active, it’s pricy even with a discount.

Ill add my 2 cents. I think an active jacket could definitely help in your situation but I think what alot of guys miss is layering their wind layer correctly. Its inherently less breathable than anything else you are wearing thus it blocks wind. In really cold temp, the further away from your skin it is the less breathable its going to be because you need the body heat to push moisture through the system. If there isnt bad precipitation while you are skiing Id highly suggest you try layering base layer, wind layer, fleece or active insulation. layering this way drastically changed the percieved breathability of my wind layers and I feel much warmer and drier.

As far as fleece vs active Ill say for me the kelvin active jacket has been a total workhorse but not perfect for every situation. Early in bow season when the temps are still warmer, its too warm and I sweat it out too fast. I still like a fleece with a wind shell under it then. As the seasons progress though it totally has replaced my other mid layers. I am mostly wearing a core light weight hoody, flash pullover or mountain jacket, and the kelvin active in cooler temps while moving and its worked great. So far i havent seen any extreme degradation with my active in two years of heavy use.

Side note Im totally addicted to wind layers now and I think I have five different ones at this point.

 

[Lawnboi]

Ill add my 2 cents. I think an active jacket could definitely help in your situation but I think what alot of guys miss is layering their wind layer correctly. Its inherently less breathable than anything else you are wearing thus it blocks wind. In really cold temp, the further away from your skin it is the less breathable its going to be because you need the body heat to push moisture through the system. If there isnt bad precipitation while you are skiing Id highly suggest you try layering base layer, wind layer, fleece or active insulation. layering this way drastically changed the percieved breathability of my wind layers and I feel much warmer and drier.

As far as fleece vs active Ill say for me the kelvin active jacket has been a total workhorse but not perfect for every situation. Early in bow season when the temps are still warmer, its too warm and I sweat it out too fast. I still like a fleece with a wind shell under it then. As the seasons progress though it totally has replaced my other mid layers. I am mostly wearing a core light weight hoody, flash pullover or mountain jacket, and the kelvin active in cooler temps while moving and its worked great. So far i havent seen any extreme degradation with my active in two years of heavy use.

Side note Im totally addicted to wind layers now and I think I have five different ones at this point.

What are you using for wind layers? Iv got a cheapo Eddie Bauer and a mountain hardware something or other I got for cheap years ago. Usually if I’m skiing I’m keeping pretty high intensity, with occasional lulls, so no cold in for example a hunting situation where I’d be stagnant after sweating a lot. I usually only break out the wind layer when it gets really cold, single digits and below otherwise the fleece seems to suffice.

If I’m going to do the wind layer below the fleece or active insulation should I be looking for a more breathable wind layer?

Edit and what would you get first, a good wind layer or alpha insulated shirt/jacket?

 

[woods89]

I'm curious what kind of temps it takes for these newer active insulation options to become really effective. I suppose that really depends on the individual.

Unless I'm moving really slow I can hike in the 20s easily in just a 150 wt blend baselayer/ Peleton 97 and a windshirt. I have been carrying a Sitka midweight fleece for a midlayer but it usually only gets put on when I'm sitting still glassing. For me it seems like that fleece is quite versatile but I'm always interested in new advancements.

 

[Bearsears]

What are you using for wind layers? Iv got a cheapo Eddie Bauer and a mountain hardware something or other I got for cheap years ago. Usually if I’m skiing I’m keeping pretty high intensity, with occasional lulls, so no cold in for example a hunting situation where I’d be stagnant after sweating a lot. I usually only break out the wind layer when it gets really cold, single digits and below otherwise the fleece seems to suffice.

If I’m going to do the wind layer below the fleece or active insulation should I be looking for a more breathable wind layer?

Edit and what would you get first, a good wind layer or alpha insulated shirt/jacket?

So the main wind layer Ive been using is a Sitka Flash pullover. Which is just basically an 1 layer goretex windstopper. No lining and no special face fabric. This type would be the most breathable of what I have. I do think there are even more breathable options though like a patagonia houdini air. I started getting other types for different situations. Like I got the sitka mountain jacket for bowhunting because its alot quieter than my flash pullover. I got a sitka jetstream because its the perfect outer layer with windstopper for pheasant hunting.

I would think for xc skiing I would lean towards a really breathable wind layer like the houdini air or a gore option with no lining.

I would definitely give a wind layer a try before an active layer just because a wind layer is going to be alot cheaper first and you are probably going to end up liking/wanting it regardless of active insulation. As example I pheasant hunted this weekend in 14 degree weather with the wind a steady 15 to 20 mph in a core lightweight, core midweight, and the jetstream. I was perfect temp internally with no sweat. But I couldn't wear my active under that jetstream because it would have been hot. If I had wanted to wear my active I would have switched to the flash pullover and worn it under the active. Im rambling now lol. Sorry.

 

[Bearsears]

I'm curious what kind of temps it takes for these newer active insulation options to become really effective. I suppose that really depends on the individual.

Unless I'm moving really slow I can hike in the 20s easily in just a 150 wt blend baselayer/ Peleton 97 and a windshirt. I have been carrying a Sitka midweight fleece for a midlayer but it usually only gets put on when I'm sitting still glassing. For me it seems like that fleece is quite versatile but I'm always interested in new advancements.

I think the big difference with the active insulation for me isn't really my warmth while hiking around as much as it is how fast they dry when I stop. Literally when I stop and throw on a puffy, the active and my base are dry in 10 to 15 minutes. So when its really cold out I'm not chilled like I used to feel while I was waiting for my fleece to dry. Also I think the only other thing they have going for them is a face fabric with dwr so you can get by a little bit longer in light rain or snow before needing to put on a shell than you could with a fleece.

Id really be curious to hear guys experiences that have used polartec alpha like the kelvin active vs polartec alpha direct like the kelvin active hoody. Supposedly the alpha direct is supposed to be even more breathable and move moisture even faster because there is no inner lining, the insulation is directly in contact with you base or skin.

 

[mtwarden]

I have a Sitka Flash, I was really disappointed with it initially as it breathes very little (unlike my other windshirts) BUT it's on the borderline of being waterproof- so it's a great piece to replace a hardshell when the odds of much rain are low (most of the hunting season for me). I also found out that while it's not the best piece for high output activities, it's a very nice piece when the temps dip and I'm still hunting (going slow). It's also a very nice piece when I'm glassing. Soooo... I have new love for the Flash

For high output stuff, you want a breathable windshirt. CFM around 20-40 cfm is what I've found to pretty close to the seat spot- to high and the wind rips right through it, too low and you're sweating too much. The older Houdini's fit the bill, I think the newer ones (but they may have changed) we're in the 5 or lower range. The Black Diamond Alpine Start along with the older Houdini's and the military version of the Houdini are in that sweet spot. There certainly could be others (possibly the Houdini Air??)

I've also found generally that the cfm is usually inverse proportionally to hh (hydrostatic head)- precipitation resistance; if it breathes more, typically less precipitation resistance (as well as wind resistance).

With Alpha you need to have the right weight (it comes in a pretty wide range like most insulations) first- obviously the right weight is going to vary with activity- more active, you want a lower weight, less- more weight.

The second critical piece is the fabric used in conjunction with Alpha- if you have a pretty low breathable fabric inner or outer, it's not going to be as effective in breathing and drying. The naked Alpha Direct with no additional fabric is highly breathable and dries very quickly, but it's also fairly fragile. It's also so breathable that even the light breezes can be felt.

I used the Sitka Active Hoody in temps ranging from 20-40 (over a light base layer) and was pretty happy with it. That's moving; if there was much wind a windshirt over it.

I going to try the trick that @Bearsears uses with the windshirt between the base layer and mid-layer/active layer. That would open the option of using the windshirt both way which would increase it's usefulness even more

 

[Bearsears]

I have a Sitka Flash, I was really disappointed with it initially as it breathes very little (unlike my other windshirts) BUT it's on the borderline of being waterproof- so it's a great piece to replace a hardshell when the odds of much rain are low (most of the hunting season for me). I also found out that while it's not the best piece for high output activities, it's a very nice piece when the temps dip and I'm still hunting (going slow). It's also a very nice piece when I'm glassing. Soooo... I have new love for the Flash

For high output stuff, you want a breathable windshirt. CFM around 20-40 cfm is what I've found to pretty close to the seat spot- to high and the wind rips right through it, too low and you're sweating too much. The older Houdini's fit the bill, I think the newer ones (but they may have changed) we're in the 5 or lower range. The Black Diamond Alpine Start along with the older Houdini's and the military version of the Houdini are in that sweet spot. There certainly could be others (possibly the Houdini Air??)

I've also found generally that the cfm is usually inverse proportionally to hh (hydrostatic head)- precipitation resistance; if it breathes more, typically less precipitation resistance (as well as wind resistance).

With Alpha you need to have the right weight (it comes in a pretty wide range like most insulations) first- obviously the right weight is going to vary with activity- more active, you want a lower weight, less- more weight.

The second critical piece is the fabric used in conjunction with Alpha- if you have a pretty low breathable fabric inner or outer, it's not going to be as effective in breathing and drying. The naked Alpha Direct with no additional fabric is highly breathable and dries very quickly, but it's also fairly fragile. It's also so breathable that even the light breezes can be felt.

I used the Sitka Active Hoody in temps ranging from 20-40 (over a light base layer) and was pretty happy with it. That's moving; if there was much wind a windshirt over it.

I going to try the trick that @Bearsears uses with the windshirt between the base layer and mid-layer/active layer. That would open the option of using the windshirt both way which would increase it's usefulness even more

Great information here mtwarden

 

[Leroy91]

save the windshirt and ditch the fleece

the active insulation replaces the fleece- it's warmer for the weight, breathes better and dries faster (if you get the right active layer)

Do these active insulation pieces tend to be quite noisy?

 

[veganhunter]

Usually, they are pretty quiet because of the face fabric. Most of these active insulation pieces have a highly permeable face fabric which will always be quieter than a nylon shell type face. The Patagonia Nano Air, Arc'Teryx Proton LT are probably the quietest jackets I own.

On another note, Arc'Teryx just released an update to their Proton FL. Which uses Octa knit (very similar to Polartec Alpha Direct) as the insulation. It's the piece I've been waiting for them to release for two years and I think will make a great active midlayer. Plus the Conifer color is perfect for hunting

 

[Bearsears]

Agree with Vegan. I have both of the active layers from Sitka and they are pretty quiet. I wouldnt hesitate to stalk in them.

 

[wind gypsy]

I can’t speak to long term durability, but the active insulation does not replace the windshirt. It’s a one for one fleece replacement. I’ve only used the Kelvin Active Jacket, so that’s all I’ll speak to. It’s warmer for weight than fleece, dries faster, can compress down more in the pack, and seems to breathe better than fleece of similar warmth. That breathability means it doesn’t do much of anything for wind.

I think this ^ nails it pretty well.

"Active" synthetic insulation compare to fleece.
-Lighter
-breathes better (if it has breathable liner/face fabric like "active" insulation should)
-compresses/packs down smaller
-dries faster
-less durable - both in terms of face fabric being torn and in long term warmth - synthetic insulation loses loft quickly after compression cycles
-More comfortable in that it typically has less restriction to movement and when layered is less prone to be grabby on other layers.
-more prone to loss of insulation value if compressed by other layers
-likely not as quiet as fleece but not as loud as a standard lightweight puffy.