New vs. Fire-formed brass - load development

[FattyBinz]

I'm about to start the The Scott Satterlee method of load development on my new 6.5 creedmoor ruger american predator. I bought 100 lapua cases and I'm wondering if I should fire-form them before starting. Will it make a big difference in the process if I just use the new cases? I don't really like the idea of using barrel life and components just to fire-form the cases. I've read that loads with fire-formed brass produce higher velocities...but if I do the entire first 10 shots (I actually plan on doing more than that...an expanded test with either 3 shots per charge or 20 shots in .1 increments) then will it give me the same idea of where the nodes are?...or will doing the first step with new brass make the whole thing meaningless when I move on to fire-formed brass for the other parts of the method?

 

[TimberHunter]

Interested in this as well


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[nhyrum]

I've never really noticed much difference in new vs fire formed. I've even heard guys with ackley improved cases not noticing much difference between new unformed brass vs the formed stuff, just a Velocity change

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[Ucsdryder]

I’ve heard that barrels speed up as well. Does it make sense to do the scatterlee on a barrel that still speeding up?

 

[nhyrum]

I’ve heard that barrels speed up as well. Does it make sense to do the scatterlee on a barrel that still speeding up?

That's part of what a break in helps with. I wouldn't start load work on shot #1 through a barrel.

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[ericwh]

Video suggests you can do your load development and then, as you go from new to once-fired brass, and as your barrel speeds up, just adjust your load to maintain velocity.

EDIT: Also suggested shoot 1 round, then clean, for 10 rounds, then sighters, then load development. And shooting 2 rounds at each charge.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

You know, for me it is so interesting to see my friend Scott's methods discussed. Scott is a class act, for sure, but I guess with retirement, he has time now.

Anywho, I would not worry about this too much. Fire forming will increase your speed and very very slightly improve your accuracy/consistency. But with so many OTHER variables to contend with, I would not worry. The two biggest things to think about is powder charge and bullet seating depth. You get those two right, you will be quite accurate with that platform.

Meanwhile, don't worry about barrel life. 6.5 Creedmoors can last well into the 3,000 - 4,000 shot range until the throat is toast. But I imagine that with your interest in accuracy, you will have likely upgraded from the Ruger long before barrel life concerns.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I’ve never heard of that guy, so I don’t know his method. I work up loads with virgin brass with no issues. Bumping shoulders back 0.002” or so on once fired brass and loading with the same charge has proven just as accurate.

Good luck with your development.

 

[sveltri]

Working on load dev. for my 6.5 PRC, I know nothing my dad is helping me, the one definite difference I noticed was case capacity in new vs. once fired. New brass could possibly create higher pressures than once fired, I would think that could possibly give different initial results? Again, I know nothing just learning.

 

[TimberHunter]

Working on load dev. for my 6.5 PRC, I know nothing my dad is helping me, the one definite difference I noticed was case capacity in new vs. once fired. New brass could possibly create higher pressures than once fired, I would think that could possibly give different initial results? Again, I know nothing just learning.

My logic is that regardless of new vs fire formed, the brass is still going to expand to the camber size while the pressure is building up. It’s just that the new brass is going to eat up a little bit more of that energy of the powder/pressure expanding to the chamber vs the energy that fire formed brass will eat up expanding to the chamber.

Does that sound right to you guys?


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[Pgohil]

At the end of the day when we change powder charges we are chasing a velocity node. And I don't think it matters about the case capacity or even different brands of cases or primers. A velocity node that is proven accurate out of your barrel is the goal. If you replicate that velocity with a different powder, primer, or case combination it should still shoot just as well.

 

[Trippy]

Not the best time as far as availability to do it but I have 100 new cases, a pound of H4831, and a box of Interlock bullets I loaded just to break in a new rifle. I'm not interested in what the bullets and powder do since I'm not using those specific ones again, it's just stuff I had in the safe. I am curious to see how the barrel speeds up over those first 100 rounds and then set up my FL bushing die off of the formed brass. Some say fire forming matters, some don't...I'll find out for that rifle if it does and move on to load development.

It's a 6.5 CM, I wouldn't worry about 100 rounds out of the 3000 you might get out of the barrel. It might be different if it's a XX Nosler, or similar cartridge, that's a bit harsher on the barrel.

I think a more important question is why am I doing this? Is it to shoot an elk at 200 yards where a 2-3 MOA group might be successful? Do you want to shoot .5 MOA groups at 1000 yards? There's a difference in the time (and money) spent to achieve either outcome.

 

[Rieckman]

You could check out precision panhandle also. I believe he starts every new barrel with a new batch of brass and doesn't bother to wait to fire form the brass.

On youtube I believe it's long range with the lilly's Scott was just a guest on there explaining his load development process from the start. Might be worth watching as well.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I recently

Not the best time as far as availability to do it but I have 100 new cases, a pound of H4831, and a box of Interlock bullets I loaded just to break in a new rifle. I'm not interested in what the bullets and powder do since I'm not using those specific ones again, it's just stuff I had in the safe. I am curious to see how the barrel speeds up over those first 100 rounds and then set up my FL bushing die off of the formed brass. Some say fire forming matters, some don't...I'll find out for that rifle if it does and move on to load development.

It's a 6.5 CM, I wouldn't worry about 100 rounds out of the 3000 you might get out of the barrel. It might be different if it's a XX Nosler, or similar cartridge, that's a bit harsher on the barrel.

I think a more important question is why am I doing this? Is it to shoot an elk at 200 yards where a 2-3 MOA group might be successful? Do you want to shoot .5 MOA groups at 1000 yards? There's a difference in the time (and money) spent to achieve either outcome.

Idk. I’ve gotten enough <moa loads from virgin brass to make me not want to waste components. I just finished up one recently with an es of 4 and sd of 2.1. I think I can live with that from my factory hunting rifles. Lol

 

[Trippy]

I recently



Idk. I’ve gotten enough <moa loads from virgin brass to make me not want to waste components. I just finished up one recently with an es of 4 and sd of 2.1. I think I can live with that from my factory hunting rifles. Lol

Nice numbers. Not typical of the those shooting with a Ruger American Predator rifle. No offense to the OP.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Nice numbers. Not typical of the those shooting with a Ruger American Predator rifle. No offense to the OP.

I know I was expecting them. Lol. However, this load has given great numbers in the past. This was out of a Remington Model Seven.

 

[wind gypsy]

Things will change once your barrel is broken in and from virgin to once fired brass.

I had issues with this last year. with once fired brass and a broken in barrel at around 200 rounds it started showing excessive pressure.

If you must, I think it's a good idea to tune your powder charges once brass is formed and barrel broken in to hit the velocities you settled on with a fresh barrel and virgin brass.

I have a hard time believing the satterlee method produces statistically significant results but that is another discussion.

 

[wind gypsy]

Working on load dev. for my 6.5 PRC, I know nothing my dad is helping me, the one definite difference I noticed was case capacity in new vs. once fired. New brass could possibly create higher pressures than once fired, I would think that could possibly give different initial results? Again, I know nothing just learning.

I would have assumed the same but it seems like some energy goes into expanding brass and you get higher pressure/velocity on the second firing even with the brass now having a higher volume.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Things will change once your barrel is broken in and from virgin to once fired brass.

I had issues with this last year. with once fired brass and a broken in barrel at around 200 rounds it started showing excessive pressure.

If you must, I think it's a good idea to tune your powder charges once brass is formed and barrel broken in to hit the velocities you settled on with a fresh barrel and virgin brass.

I have a hard time believing the satterlee method produces statistically significant results but that is another discussion.

My once fired loads have mirrored my virgin brass loads. Idk, it has just worked out for me in several different rifles and several different cartridges.

 

[wind gypsy]

My once fired loads have mirrored my virgin brass loads. Idk, it has just worked out for me in several different rifles and several different cartridges.

Im sure the difference varies in each case. I’ve had guns where the brass hardly grows from virgin with a tighter chamber and some where it grows a lot. Most belted magnums will blow the shoulders forward over 0.010” from virgin, some as much as double that.