New to thermal - basic questions

[Antares]

Looking to dip my toes in the thermal game. Would appreciate feedback from those with experience.

Not wanting to spend a ton of money because I'm only in a place I can use thermal for 3-5 weeks a year. Plenty of shot opportunities during daylight hours, so no real need, I'm just curious and want to try it out. Targets are deer, all inside 150 yards. Rifle is a Tikka .223 Rem w/ NXS 2.5-10x42. I'd like to get a clip-on unit so I can hunt in the day as well.

I'm looking at an AGM Rattler TC19-256

Questions:

- What's this biggest advantage with the TC25-256 over the TC19-256? I'm guessing I'll get suggestions to step up to the TS25-384, but I'd like to not spend that much unless the 256 models truly won't work for my use.

- Mounting. What's better for zero retention when removing and reinstalling the thermal, attaching it to the objective bell or attaching it to a pic rail in front to the scope. Pic rail seems like a sturdier option to me.

- If going the pic rail direction. I'd put this rifle in my KRG Bravo. Any advantages to an enclosed forend vs. a stand alone night vision rail?

- I don't like buying used electronics... Any thoughts on used vs new thermal?

- To summarize, how well do you think this would work for deer inside 150 yards? NXS 2.5-10 w/ a TC19-256 (or TC25-256) mounted in front of it. Thermal is removed and reinstalled frequently for day hunting, with no real chance to confirm/adjust zero.

Thanks for your help. Open to any and all thoughts or suggestions.

 

[Dented]

I started down the same path. After a lot of research, I stumbled upon Outdoor Legacy Gear. They've got videos on eew tube, lots of interesting stuff. There's a 2 part video on new buyer's mistakes. I called them, got a call back from the owner, answered all of my questions. Remarkable service.

Buy what you want, from where you want. For the cash I was spending I wanted good advice and great support. I don't get anything from them. Hell, I haven't spoken to them since I placed my order. But the work they put on up front sold me on their business.

They can give you solid answers about where you're hunting, performance issues, pros, cons and realities.

Check out The Late Night Vision Show. There's a lot to be learned before you drop a check.

 

[Pursuer]

^^^^This^^^^

Do your homework before dropping the coin. YouTube has tons of videos that will give you an idea on the clarity and fov on unit you’re interested in. Honestly I would recommend you stay away from clip ons. A dedicated thermal scope for the same cash as a clip on is going to be better than the clip on unit. And you have more options with a dedicated scope. Also I wouldn’t get anything less than a 384 resolution and a 25mm objective lens.

I started out using digital night vision, that didn’t last long. Then got into a 384x35mm thermal. Then upgraded to a 640x50mm unit last year. It’s a money pit, but they sure are fun. And typically if you buy a decent unit it’s a pretty easy sell with minimal loss.

 

[Antares]

I appreciate all that guys. This thread is part of me doing research. I’m not in a hurry to make a bad decision. My first opportunity to use it isn’t until December. I have some time to think about it.

I can realistically probably only night hunt 20 days or less a year. I’m not going to set up a dedicated night hunting rifle. That’s why I like the clip on idea. I’ll be hunting all day and it would be fun to put on a thermal for a few hours in the evening, but I can’t swap scopes and rezero all the time. If I lived somewhere where I could use it all the time, I’d go big and get something really nice, but that’s not the case for me. I can’t justify a $4000 optic for a few nights a year. I’m just trying to find out if there’s something usable in my price range.

If the answer is “what you want to do isn’t possible for less than $2500”, then that’s helpful information. Those are some of the things I’m trying to figure out.

Thanks again.

 

[dirtytough]

I know zero about the clip ons you mentioned.

Last year was my first with a clip on. Before that I had used dedicated weapon sights. Your idea is fine.

I would definitely mount it on a pic rail. Most clip ons are setup to cowitness @1.5”. KRG probably has their rail setup for that. XLR’s is way off.

I’m guessing your scope is mounted low. Not 1.5” to the center from the top of a pic rail. It might work fine like that but I would get mounts so it lines up.

I scan with a scanner. When I see something to shoot I get on the rifle. Just like day hunting with binos. Thermal wise I don’t mind using a 384 weapon sight since I’m not looking through it that much. But the scanner needs to be a 640. I think scanning with a 256 would absolutely suck.

Scanning with a rifle sucks. I did it one time and ordered a scanner the next day. If you scan with your rifle better have it mounted on something like a tripod.

Idk if you are just shooting any deer you see. But I kinda doubt @150 yards you will be able to see if it has antlers or not with those thermals. If it doesn’t matter what you shoot disregard.

Another thought would be getting QD mounts for your day scope and using a dedicated weapon sight for the thermal. I tested a thermal taking it on and off and it was holding an MOA group for 5 shots. That was taking it off between shots and remounting it. I would test it but I wouldn’t be surprised if you could do the same with QD mounts on the day scope.

Regards, Branden

 

[bradb]

I would also talk with Myron Morrow, https://www.nightvisionoutfitters.com/

He was very good to talk to. Yes he sells them so of course may go a little too what he sells, but a very straight shooter. And i would say the same with the outdoor legacy guys. Both good resources.
And i agree with above post on a good scanner is the most important. I spent way more then i should and had a few sent to me to try. Took them over to a buddies that night hunts s fair bit. Bought the nox 35. Thankfully i have a buddy in the outdoor industry that treats me good.

 

[Lxhuntinpa]

When I first started coyote hunting with a thermal we would handhold the thermal scope and use it as a scanner. Once we had a coyote coming in, we clamped it back on the rifle. We did this for probably 5 years averaging 2-3 nights a week. Never had any issues. During the day we put our regular scopes on to deer or groundhog hunt.

 

[SuperDUECE22]

Give jason a call at outdoor legacy

Contact Us

Normal Business Hours: 9am-5pm Monday - Friday Phone: (877)350-1818 Email: [email protected] Location: Nacogdoches, TX 75965 - Online store only

outdoorlegacygear.com

I'd imagine the image quality on a 256-resolution scope would be horrible and doubt you'll be able to ID or shoot anything over 100 yards. There's a pile of good new thermals that hit the market in the last 2-3 years and the price is coming is down, but I'd recommend doubling your budget at least even if that means waiting a year or two. Can also find some good deals on used or demo models, ive purchased some used demo units from dealers to try and they all have been fine and easy to rehome if you don't like. But if your dead set on the AGM Rattler TC19-256 I'd make damn sure i had a minimum 384 but preferably 640 scanner to go with your thermal sight.

 

[Dented]

I went with a thermal monocular (scanner) and a green or red light on my rifle. I can remove the light easily, my scope is illuminated. I use the monocular to scan then switch to the rifle/light when my target is in the kill zone. This works so well that I've purchased a second light mount for another rifle to hunt. I'm set up for anything I could ever hunt at night, I get maximum return on investment from my thermal and my light, and I more than doubled the time I use both. The second light mount cost about $35.

I don't swap scopes. I don't take stuff on and off other than the light.

 

[Antares]

I know zero about the clip ons you mentioned.

Last year was my first with a clip on. Before that I had used dedicated weapon sights. Your idea is fine.

I would definitely mount it on a pic rail. Most clip ons are setup to cowitness @1.5”. KRG probably has their rail setup for that. XLR’s is way off.

I’m guessing your scope is mounted low. Not 1.5” to the center from the top of a pic rail. It might work fine like that but I would get mounts so it lines up.

I scan with a scanner. When I see something to shoot I get on the rifle. Just like day hunting with binos. Thermal wise I don’t mind using a 384 weapon sight since I’m not looking through it that much. But the scanner needs to be a 640. I think scanning with a 256 would absolutely suck.

Scanning with a rifle sucks. I did it one time and ordered a scanner the next day. If you scan with your rifle better have it mounted on something like a tripod.

Idk if you are just shooting any deer you see. But I kinda doubt @150 yards you will be able to see if it has antlers or not with those thermals. If it doesn’t matter what you shoot disregard.

Another thought would be getting QD mounts for your day scope and using a dedicated weapon sight for the thermal. I tested a thermal taking it on and off and it was holding an MOA group for 5 shots. That was taking it off between shots and remounting it. I would test it but I wouldn’t be surprised if you could do the same with QD mounts on the day scope.

Regards, Branden

Thanks, Branden. That's all very helpful.

It's any deer, it's damage control, I just need to ID them as deer. My scope is set up at 1.9" over the bore, so not super low, but I will keep the mounting in mind. I suppose I could avoid the whole cowitness/rail issue buy using the thermal as the weapon sight. I guess I'd just need to test what kind of zero shift I see from removing and reinstalling my day scope and see if it's acceptable or not. I just really don't like the idea of messing with my day scope mounting because I cull goats at 300-500 yards during the day and I like my zero to be perfect.

I'm getting the answers I expected. Sounds like anything 256 is going to be an expensive disappointment. I just need to decide if a 384 optic in the $2500 range makes sense. I'm all about expensive rifle/optic projects..., but I just need to decide if I'd get enough use out of it to justify it. This particular control work is only a few weeks a year and it's not steady/guaranteed, it's "as needed."

 

[Antares]

I went with a thermal monocular (scanner) and a green or red light on my rifle. I can remove the light easily, my scope is illuminated. I use the monocular to scan then switch to the rifle/light when my target is in the kill zone. This works so well that I've purchased a second light mount for another rifle to hunt. I'm set up for anything I could ever hunt at night, I get maximum return on investment from my thermal and my light, and I more than doubled the time I use both. The second light mount cost about $35.

I don't swap scopes. I don't take stuff on and off other than the light.

This is an interesting idea. Thank you. I have a friend who played with a light for a while, but I had forgotten about it.

What light are you using? What do you think spooks deer less, red or green?

 

[Keith Stone]

If you end up stretching your budget a little and want to stick with a clip on there are some new units dropping from Armasight and AGM that will be worth a look.

 

[Sam Colt]

The smaller the objective

What light are you using? What do you think spooks deer less, red or green?

I've found that color really doesn't matter much, it's the movement that spooks 'em. Quick changes, like turning it on facing them, or shaky, jumpy movements while pointed in their direction will put most critters on edge.

 

[Dented]

I agree on the light color doesn't seem to matter. I'm using Hog Sniper 35, with the adjustable tail cap, and a scope mount with a second mount for another rifle. They make larger lights, I just don't need them. The 35 works just fine for the ranges I shoot. The adjustable flood to spot and the dimmer tail cap make it a really tunable system for me.

 

[Antares]

This continues to be helpful. Thanks guys.

You think digital NV with an IR illuminator a viable option?

For simplicity, assume I’m in a blind and deer are 100-150 yards at a feeder.

 

[Sam Colt]

Absolutely. We use it to great effect on hogs.

Thermal works better when you don’t know where they are going to be, or when they are in mixed cover. You can pick them out easily against the cooler background.

Night vision is perfectly adequate at those ranges and when you know where they are likely to be.

One drawback can be reflected IR washing out the scope. Say there’s vegetation halfway to the feeder. Separating the light from the scope can help. On some feeders we use solar IR illuminators at the feeder to eliminate that.

 

[Antares]

This is really interesting. Thanks for helping me think through options.

 

[Dented]

NV and thermal both have pros and cons. Really do your research before you select one or the other. Know what you're getting, as neither are cheap. I've got thermal, and for my use, it was the best choice. Curiously, I've actually used it during the day and found it effective. It was a video on squirrel hunting that got me to try that.

Once I've completed 2 other projects I'm working on, my toy money is likely going to a NV scope setup on a rifle. Dunno. I'm finding thermal to work for everything I do now. But NV has advantages i can't get with thermal.

On the up side, those Hog Sniper lights have IR insets also available relatively cheap. More use of the same gear. I like that kind of efficiency.

 

[dirtytough]

If you are shooting to 500ish with the day scope I would definitely worry about zero if using QD mounts taking it on and off.

Honestly it sounds like a Steiner C35 would work decent for you. They are a 640 clip on and we’re priced extremely cheap at one point. They are heavy but that matter in a blind.

 

[Antares]

If you are shooting to 500ish with the day scope I would definitely worry about zero if using QD mounts taking it on and off.

Honestly it sounds like a Steiner C35 would work decent for you. They are a 640 clip on and we’re priced extremely cheap at one point. They are heavy but that matter in a blind.

Yes, that is m worry with QD mounts on my day scope.

The C35 looks excellent and… well outside my price range.