New Arrow Build for 2022 *Update

[Stevendearden]

I’m shootings 300 spine x-impacts with 200 up front (head+insert+collar), 7inch wrap, 3 vanes - 29in arrow and I’m shooting bullet holes - other than when my own form falls apart.

I’m also using the IW component system so the heads are seated in the shaft rather than an outsert system. IMO you’ll want to use some deep six insert system and not the outserts with that weight up front.


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I am looking at a similar build, what do you think of the IW deep six system?

 

[Zac]

I am looking at a similar build, what do you think of the IW deep six system?

It should be extinct. The Snyder Core system is far superior.

 

[laltaffer]

I am looking at a similar build, what do you think of the IW deep six system?

I like it. Unless I’m missing something the Snyder core system is the same with more options and the primary difference is having heads that have the insert machined on to them. But if you want to use other BH’s you’ll need to use the deep six.

I can’t say I’m as prolific a hunter as others on rokslide but I love the tolerance and build of the components. I’ve also had an arrow or two with the field points hit a tree and had no damage to the arrow. With a little work I was able to get everything out of the tree with no damage to anything.

It’s certainly one of the best if not the best component system for .166 shafts.


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[Stevendearden]

I like it. Unless I’m missing something the Snyder core system is the same with more options and the primary difference is having heads that have the insert machined on to them. But if you want to use other BH’s you’ll need to use the deep six.

I can’t say I’m as prolific a hunter as others on rokslide but I love the tolerance and build of the components. I’ve also had an arrow or two with the field points hit a tree and had no damage to the arrow. With a little work I was able to get everything out of the tree with no damage to anything.

It’s certainly one of the best if not the best component system for .166 shafts.


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I would be using different broadheads for now so I’m really just looking at the components. Looking for a durable 4mm option. I’ve heard good and bad things about the deep six system but IW components seem to be the way to go.

 

[laltaffer]

I would be using different broadheads for now so I’m really just looking at the components. Looking for a durable 4mm option. I’ve heard good and bad things about the deep six system but IW components seem to be the way to go.

Yup. I shoot Sevr expandables for whitetail and IW wides for tougher game - currently chasing pigs in Arkansas- the system is very strong but definitely use the collars.

Also I Like using the hot melt wax/glue they use. With a little boiling water you can pull it all back out and change things up if you want.


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[Stevendearden]

Yup. I shoot Sevr expandables for whitetail and IW wides for tougher game - currently chasing pigs in Arkansas- the system is very strong but definitely use the collars.

Also I Like using the hot melt wax/glue they use. With a little boiling water you can pull it all back out and change things up if you want.


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Do you hotmelt your inserts and footers in or epoxy the inserts?

 

[laltaffer]

Do you hotmelt your inserts and footers in or epoxy the inserts?

Hot melt - and never had any of it pull out which honestly has surprised me. Foam, layered, bag targets and no problem. Even the trees I’ve hit I couldn’t pull it out. Always had to unscrew the arrow from the head. Works so well I doubt I ever use epoxy or any other glue again.

The IW hot melt has beeswax in it. I’m sure others sell it too but it’s different than the old school stick of hot melt.


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[Dennis]

My suggestion is buy or borrow a few shafts to test with your tip weight. I would start by shooting bare shafts to see what shaft weight works best and gives you perfect arrow flight at seven yards or so. You can also get field tip test kits that will give you a range of weights to determine what total tip and insert weights might fly best.

My 2 cents. I like most have built arrows based on whats popular, what some expert said, what computer programs have selected or based on some criteria I dreamed up. I would say most if not all shot well, but I knew that some of my older setups were more effective on game animals. I tried light and moderately heavier shafts and again they shot well, but I was not happy with some of my deflections and penetration on animals. I tried multi broadheads in the 100 to 125 grain range looking for the magic I had once seen. Last year I decided to start with a clean slate and started off by weighing some of my older set ups which were very heavy by today's standards. Based on that knowledge I decided I was open to a new direction. I purchased and tested 350, 300 and 250 spine shafts to test with multi weight field tips and searching for perfect bare shaft arrow flight at seven yards as a starting point. I knew going down this road would mean that I would be limiting trajectory to some point but I could live with that within reason. Last year was my first year with my new set up and I think my performance has improved even over my older system, but time will tell. One thing that did surprise me was after months of testing and tuning was how well my bare shafts flew and grouped at distance.

Good luck with your journey

 

[doc holiday13]

I just listened to that podcast episode and didn't hear Dorge make any specific claims about optimal FOC. He made a general statement that higher FOC can contribute to decreased downrange energy due to excess bending of the shaft, but he didn't quantify the effect. I'll be interested to see the downrange speed data he said he'll be publishing later this month.

It's worth noting that the markedly improved speed/energy retention Dorge claims to observe with his specially designed vanes and shafts is occurring at 315+ fps. He repeated multiple times in that podcast episode that at arrow speeds under 315 fps, the stuff he's talking about doesn't really matter.

So I recently came across a Ranch Fairy video done with the Hunting Public guys, and they definitely put to rest some of speculation of high arrow weight. I say high arrow weight because that was not fully evaluated in the video.

Using Labradar chronograph, they were measuring arrow speed from 0-60 yards shooting arrows sub 500g and arrows 600g+. The lighter arrows did leave the bow much faster but lost 20fps by the time they got to 60 yards. I wanna say launch speed of 286 fps and impact at 60 yard target of 266fps. Then they launched a 700ish grain arrow at 266 fps and it only lost 10 fps at 60 yards.

I would conjecture an even lighter arrow of around 415-450g arrow would loose even more speed. The speed loss of the lighter arrow is literally all air resistance so upon impact on target, that lighter arrow is going to deaccelerate even faster.

But it seems Dorge isn't looking at sub 300fps arrows... So I'm curious WTF has hunting arrows that are going 315fps and are those guys using fixed blade heads??

 

[Billy Goat]

Here's some actual numbers....

Arrow weight: 391.5 grains. 3' velocity - 313.7 fps, 65 yard velocity - 280.1 fps


463.4 grains, 3' velocity - 290.5 fps, 65 yard velocity - 263 fps.


482 grain arrow, 3' velocity - 285.4 fps, 65 yard velocity - 259.3 fps.

That's everything being equal.

Using Labradar chronograph, they were measuring arrow speed from 0-60 yards shooting arrows sub 500g and arrows 600g+. The lighter arrows did leave the bow much faster but lost 20fps by the time they got to 60 yards. I wanna say launch speed of 286 fps and impact at 60 yard target of 266fps. Then they launched a 700ish grain arrow at 266 fps and it only lost 10 fps at 60 yards.

These numbers are way screwed up. Of course a heavier arrow will retain fps better, it has a higher BC, but something is way way off with those numbers. This is saying that a 200 grain heavier arrow only looses 20 FPS, which it doesn't. This is like comparing a 30-30 to a 300 win mag, these two shafts are being launched with way different energies. My last 482 grain arrow build was in the high 280's I believe, took 75# for me to get it at that velocity. A 700 grain arrow with that setup is going about 210 fps. For me to get that arrow up to 266 fps is going to require another 25# of draw weight.


So to me they are promoting a premise to people that you need to do this because look at what it gains you, just leaving out the horsepower of the equipment.

 

[doc holiday13]

These numbers are way screwed up. Of course a heavier arrow will retain fps better, it has a higher BC, but something is way way off with those numbers. This is saying that a 200 grain heavier arrow only looses 20 FPS, which it doesn't. This is like comparing a 30-30 to a 300 win mag, these two shafts are being launched with way different energies. My last 482 grain arrow build was in the high 280's I believe, took 75# for me to get it at that velocity. A 700 grain arrow with that setup is going about 210 fps. For me to get that arrow up to 266 fps is going to require another 25# of draw weight.

Please don't take this personally, but do you have like a 25" draw or a 30 year old bow? My first adult bow was set at 70# and threw 530g arrows at ~230 fps. I'm also not direct posting the EXACT numbers from the video, BUT your actual numbers do reflect what I was saying in that a heavier arrow retains velocity

The guys with Ranch Fairy had like ~29" draws pulling 70#
My 30" draw Z7 at 73# was throwing a 525g arrow at 266 fps
My new bow at 31" draw and 75# is throwing 592g arrows at 277 fps(yes i'm a freak of nature with my long ass draw, which even 31" is about 1/2-3/4" short)

I'm also not advocating 700g arrows.. All I'm saying is that heavy arrows will retain velocity and that a 700g arrow at 255 fps will hit harder than a 482g arrow at 260 fps

Another part of the formula is integrity of the flight. 2 arrows of equal weight may fly the same but they do react differently on impact if one has 8% FOC and the other has 15%+ FOC.. If your weight is concentrated at the front, then there is less weight to whip around at the back end(which leads to the weird re-directs and loss of momentum of the arrow after entry)

 

[Billy Goat]

Please don't take this personally, but do you have like a 25" draw or a 30 year old bow? My first adult bow was set at 70# and threw 530g arrows at ~230 fps. I'm also not direct posting the EXACT numbers from the video, BUT your actual numbers do reflect what I was saying in that a heavier arrow retains velocity

The guys with Ranch Fairy had like ~29" draws pulling 70#
My 30" draw Z7 at 73# was throwing a 525g arrow at 266 fps
My new bow at 31" draw and 75# is throwing 592g arrows at 277 fps(yes i'm a freak of nature with my long ass draw, which even 31" is about 1/2-3/4" short)

I'm also not advocating 700g arrows.. All I'm saying is that heavy arrows will retain velocity and that a 700g arrow at 255 fps will hit harder than a 482g arrow at 260 fps

Another part of the formula is integrity of the flight. 2 arrows of equal weight may fly the same but they do react differently on impact if one has 8% FOC and the other has 15%+ FOC.. If your weight is concentrated at the front, then there is less weight to whip around at the back end(which leads to the weird re-directs and loss of momentum of the arrow after entry)

Hahaha, nope, I'm pretty average I think.

The numbers of the retained velocity were from a Hoyt Carbon Defiant Turbo, 72# I think, 29" draw. Shot thru a shooting machine with a chronograph placed at distance.

I have numbers in a notebook of a wide range of arrows I shot in a mathews vxr, I'm not saying it's going to be exactly 100# for me to have a 700 grain arrow at 266, but it won't be far. You understand the difference in your 530 gr arrow at 230 versus a 700 at 266?? You need another 3.5" of draw or 16-18# just to get to 266, let alone what adding 170 grains would do.

I simply was posting to try to keep numbers realistic.


Carry on.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

So I recently came across a Ranch Fairy video done with the Hunting Public guys, and they definitely put to rest some of speculation of high arrow weight. I say high arrow weight because that was not fully evaluated in the video.

Using Labradar chronograph, they were measuring arrow speed from 0-60 yards shooting arrows sub 500g and arrows 600g+. The lighter arrows did leave the bow much faster but lost 20fps by the time they got to 60 yards. I wanna say launch speed of 286 fps and impact at 60 yard target of 266fps. Then they launched a 700ish grain arrow at 266 fps and it only lost 10 fps at 60 yards.

If this is the video you're referring to, here's the actual data. The 700-ish gr arrow was going 236 fps, not 266 fps.

But it seems Dorge isn't looking at sub 300fps arrows... So I'm curious WTF has hunting arrows that are going 315fps and are those guys using fixed blade heads??

Crossbow hunters and vertical bow shooters with sub-400 gr arrows. I don't know about fixed heads at those speeds...I'd think they would be awfully hard to tune.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I have numbers in a notebook of a wide range of arrows I shot in a mathews vxr, I'm not saying it's going to be exactly 100# for me to have a 700 grain arrow at 266, but it won't be far. You understand the difference in your 530 gr arrow at 230 versus a 700 at 266?? You need another 3.5" of draw or 16-18# just to get to 266, let alone what adding 170 grains would do.

I simply was posting to try to keep numbers realistic.

@doc holiday13 is mistaken on the 700 gr speed number...it's 236 fps (not 266 fps), which seems reasonable for an average DL at around 70 lbs out of a modern compound.

 

[fatlander]

That chart is very telling. At around 475 grains the speed loss levels off up to 600 grains. Then it drops again, however not near as much, around 700.

500ish grains is a pretty optimal balance of initial velocity while still retaining velocity at distance.

Furthermore, RF shoots pigs at feeders under 30 yards. Why does he even care what his arrow is doing at 60?

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[Billy Goat]

@doc holiday13 is mistaken on the 700 gr speed number...it's 236 fps (not 266 fps), which seems reasonable for an average DL at around 70 lbs out of a modern compound.

I suspect that 236fos is out of reach of a majority with 700gr, but I can't be certain.

 

[Billy Goat]

That chart is very telling. At around 475 grains the speed loss levels off up to 600 grains. Then it drops again, however not near as much, around 700.

500ish grains is a pretty optimal balance of initial velocity while still retaining velocity at distance.

Furthermore, RF shoots pigs at feeders under 30 yards. Why does he even care what his arrow is doing at 60?

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That's assuming that the light arrows are tuned to these bows. An arrow coming out at 300 fps that's poorly tuned looses speed at a much greater rate than one that's tuned.

There seems to be a threshold, at 290 fps you need to have your chit together. You can get by with slightly tuned stuff at slower speeds, it's just a lit more forgiving.

 

[HNTR918]

Switched from X-impact to Deep Impact this year. Reduces my FOC. However, the Deep Impacts don’t break where the outsert ends like the X-Impacts did. Same inner diameter but the wall thickness and cross sectional area is much better.

 

[fatlander]

That's assuming that the light arrows are tuned to these bows. An arrow coming out at 300 fps that's poorly tuned looses speed at a much greater rate than one that's tuned.

There seems to be a threshold, at 290 fps you need to have your chit together. You can get by with slightly tuned stuff at slower speeds, it's just a lit more forgiving.

Agreed. There’s a lot of assumptions.

Fletching number, size, and orientation also come into play once you get out that far.

Perfectly tuned bareshafts would be the fairest comparison.


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[doc holiday13]

@doc holiday13 is mistaken on the 700 gr speed number...it's 236 fps (not 266 fps), which seems reasonable for an average DL at around 70 lbs out of a modern compound.

Thanks for the correction.. I knew it was a 10fps loss

I simply was posting to try to keep numbers realistic.


Carry on.

Yeah I'm not the "FOC is king of all" crowd but it certainly has some validity to it. I truly wasn't planning on getting much of a new arrow setup for this year, but i got some side work that put some coin in my pocket and let me buy a new bow. New bow actually fits my draw within a reasonable amount on draw length and its stupid fast at 75#. I could potentially crank up the speed because I have 80# limbs. But like i said previously its throwing a 592g arrow at 277 fps.. The new experimental hunting arrows are sitting on roughly 15% FOC and 17% FOC which is a nice jump from the 10%..

10% FOC killed a lot of deer over the last decade(while using expandables) But there were also a lot fewer pass throughs than I would have liked. I would suspect that jumping to a quality fixed blade would have changed a lot but I decided to change ALL the things and I expect a lot of good pass throughs this year.