Need help with building new arrows for my DW and DL

[BowtechStew]

Good morning... I'm finally returning to bow hunting with a compound bow after a serious reconstruction of my Rt shoulder 3 years ago. I had to resort to a crossbow for 3 years because I could not draw a bow or shoot a 12ga or hunting rifle! The time has come where I can return to my previous methods of hunting.
I had to reduce my DW to 60lbs and have a DL of 27". I doubt I'll ever shoot a heavier DW again. I purchased a Bowtech Realm new in 2018 and had 2 awesome seasons with it until a tree cutting incident injured my shoulder pretty good. I still have the Bowtech Realm but now have it reduced from 70 to 60lb DW @ 27" DL.
So... I just purchased a dozen Victory RIP Extreme Velocity arrows (400 spine as per chart) since I'm only shooting 60lbs, a lighter GPI will help with my lesser DW and short DL.
My problem is determining components for the build. Trying to balance speed with arrow weight and FOC has me stumped at this point. Using an FOC calculation format, I've tried 4 different component options and still keep coming up with what seems to me, a light finished arrow! So far, I've reached finished weights of 368.4 grains/19.2 FOC, 343.4 grains/17.7 FOC and 323 grains/15.31 FOC. Spine chart is correct at 400=5.9 GPI, 15gr for 3 vanes, 25 for lighted nock, no wraps, 30-75 grain insert options and a 100 grain fixed blade BH or field point for TAC shoots.
Every option seems extremely light in finished weight and the FOC keeps climbing as I try to increase components! All my research is showing that FOC over 19-20 % is too high, 15-16% optimal but my finished arrow at 15.31% is 323 grains! I might be able to kill a rabbit with this weight!
I'm open to suggestions in options before I purchase any more components. I have the shafts and vanes so far and a ton of 100 grain tips so... what say ye???

 

[wildwilderness]

I say you should be fine with one of those setups for deer hunting. As long as it tunes well you will get plenty of penetration.


If you wanted a heavier set up, will need to change components. Adding heavier inserts would be an option as long as the spine holds up. Otherwise a whole new setup may be needed…. I don’ t think that’s necessary till you try what you have

 

[Mighty Mouse]

High FOC is by no means necessary, but as long as the arrow remains sufficiently spined, more FOC won't hurt anything. What causes problems for some folks is the blind pursuit of FOC without considering spine. The pied pipers of the Ashby crowd lure them down the EFOC path, they start stacking weight on the front willy-nilly, and they end up with an underspined arrow that won't tune (and is also very slow).

In your case, a moderate amount of front end weight is yielding high FOC because you're using a very light shaft (5.9 gpi) that is also quite short (assuming 26" based on the info provided). Per qSpine/OT2Go, 400 spine is adequate even in the heaviest configuration you mentioned (based on the assumptions stated below). If you want to further increase total arrow weight without increasing FOC, add weight to the rear. If you were to add 1 gr to the rear for every 2 gr added to the front, FOC would remain roughly unchanged. A wrap, nock bushing, or nock collar are easy ways to add a little weight to the rear. You could even add a hidden insert (HIT) just forward of the nock.

IMO 6-8 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight generally yields a good balance of speed and weight for a compound bow. The larger the target animal, the more I would tend toward the upper end of that gpp range. I would personally be concerned about the durability of an ultralight shaft for hunting purposes and would choose something with a more middle-of-the-road gpi (but I may be worried about nothing).

Arrow inputs: 26" C2C, 175 gr on front, 40 gr on rear
Bow inputs: 340 fps IBO, 60# DW, 27" DL, 30.75" ATA, 7.125" BH, 80% LO

 

[mod-it]

Those are some very light gpi arrows and that is why you're struggling to get a very high finished weight.
You said that you thought a lighter gpi arrow would help with your draw weight and length, so that makes me think you were targeting speed.
But, do you need speed because you take unknown yardage shots a lot and need the tighter trajectory to make up for yardage judging errors? Or do you ambush hunt and normally take known yardage shots? (we all seem to worry about speed, myself included, when it's not near as important in the big picture)

With those arrows and assuming you don't want to try to sell them and get something with a higher gpi, here's what my build would be for shooting whitetails...
If you're willing to strip the vanes and add a wrap, then refletch:
Arrow cut at 26".
75 grain insert.
100 grain tip.
10 grain 6" wrap.
3" Q2i Fusion x-ii vanes, weighing around 10 grains each.
24 grain lighted nock.
Finished arrow = 390 grains & @ 15% FOC, 63.1 ft-lbs kinetic energy. Will do around 270 fps with your bow and specs.

If not willing to strip vanes and add a wrap, and assuming Blazer vanes:
Same other components as above = 367 grain arrow at 18% FOC, 62,9 ft-lbs kinetic energy. Will do around 278 fps with your bow and specs.

With no wrap and light Blazer vanes, the spine calculator I used showed a 400 spine arrow with a 50 grain insert, but a 75 grain insert bumped to a 340 spine. I think a 400 would tune fine if you use a 75 grain insert, but adding wrap weight and heavier vanes will only help, in both spine and getting the higher finished arrow weight you're after.

 

[Marble]

I wouldn't use those arrows for hunting. They are too fragile. I've shot a lot of 3d stuff with them, and sometimes they break when I pull them from the target.

I would not even consider your FOC. It's all bullshit. It's ridiculous and causes a lot of guys to chase a magical number that makes a bunch of other problems.

Listen to Mighty mouse above. He gives some good info out.

My go-to arrow I recommend is the Easton Axis. You don't need footers or any of that stuff, they are super tough, easy to source and have a great reputation.

I would look for a total arrow weight to try for. Probably in the 400-450 grain area for the OP.

Concentrate more on form and practice. It's more important than FOC or arrow weight.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[Beendare]

IME, You are focusing on the wrong criteria.

I prefer a durable hunting arrow. Not only do these convey more energy into the critter, but they dont break at the slightest hit.

Over the many decades, I’ve seen decreased durability with sub 9 GPI shafts.

I would go with a 340 or 350 spine….and dont worry about FOC. Best to err on overspined for a hunt arrow in a compound.

 

[BowtechStew]

High FOC is by no means necessary, but as long as the arrow remains sufficiently spined, more FOC won't hurt anything. What causes problems for some folks is the blind pursuit of FOC without considering spine. The pied pipers of the Ashby crowd lure them down the EFOC path, they start stacking weight on the front willy-nilly, and they end up with an underspined arrow that won't tune (and is also very slow).

In your case, a moderate amount of front end weight is yielding high FOC because you're using a very light shaft (5.9 gpi) that is also quite short (assuming 26" based on the info provided). Per qSpine/OT2Go, 400 spine is adequate even in the heaviest configuration you mentioned (based on the assumptions stated below). If you want to further increase total arrow weight without increasing FOC, add weight to the rear. If you were to add 1 gr to the rear for every 2 gr added to the front, FOC would remain roughly unchanged. A wrap, nock bushing, or nock collar are easy ways to add a little weight to the rear. You could even add a hidden insert (HIT) just forward of the nock.

IMO 6-8 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight generally yields a good balance of speed and weight for a compound bow. The larger the target animal, the more I would tend toward the upper end of that gpp range. I would personally be concerned about the durability of an ultralight shaft for hunting purposes and would choose something with a more middle-of-the-road gpi (but I may be worried about nothing).

Arrow inputs: 26" C2C, 175 gr on front, 40 gr on rear
Bow inputs: 340 fps IBO, 60# DW, 27" DL, 30.75" ATA, 7.125" BH, 80% LO

View attachment 640444

Thank you for your input! I just ordered 20 grain rear bushings to add weight so we're on the same page!

 

[BowtechStew]

Thank you guys for all of your input. Definitely strong pertinent information and I've thought about most of them already before posting my question.
Here's my issue. Since my shoulder surgery, 70# draw weight ain't gonna happen no more!!! I'm at 60# and that seems ok and my limit. Because I inherited short arms, my DL is 27" and with my drop away rest, my older arrows are cut to 26.5".
I assumed( dangerous!) that with my drop in draw weight and having a shorter DL rather than being close to the coveted 30" length, I was losing enough speed to reduce longer shots to be effective. My desire was to start shooting TAC and some 3D and hunt with the same arrows, thus my 400 spine choice which does coincide with Victory's chart looking up my DW and DL.
I'm trying to cover more bases than just hunting whitetails from a tree and blind. Normally, my hunting shots here in the northeast are 15-30 yards tops. I don't own a chronograph so I can't do any speed testing and build from there.
My older arrows are spined for my old DW and the 60# now doesn't match up anymore. So now you see why I'm asking for smarter arrow builders than myself for their input.
All opinions are welcomed and appreciated even if you think I'm wrong, I'm good with that because other opinions are knowledge and one cannot get enough of it!

 

[Beendare]

How much do your old arrow weigh?

It's true you don't need a massively heavy arrow to kill critters....but IMO, 50gr +/- really doesn't matter all that much when shooting a compound...thus I would probably just shoot your old arrows.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

My older arrows are spined for my old DW and the 60# now doesn't match up anymore

Out of curiosity, what make/model/spine are your old arrows?

 

[BowtechStew]

Easton Flatline DOA 400 spine 26" cut. Since my shoulder reconstruction surgery, unfortunately, they had to cut off 1/2" of tendon because it was torn/frayed so bad they had to have a clean edge to sew and anchor back into the bone. This changed my draw length to actually be longer because the tendon was stretched and anchored to a new area of bone plus 6mm of collar bone ground off to make room for all of the rebuild. The physical therapist was a great guy but a beast in therapy and stretched my shoulder over a 5 month period to move like never before!! Painful?? Hell frikkin yes! Results...excellent! However, less strength and I have to be cautious of retearing, so 70# draw is down to 60# now, DL is up a half in or a bit more and the arrows now hit my rest with a BH on.

I just ordered another dozen Victory VAP TKO shafts at 8.8 gpi and will build these for just hunting. The build with my chosen parts is 425grains. It'll be slower but have the weight.
I'll use the RIP XV 400's for TAC and 3D shoots.

 

[BowtechStew]

Easton Flatline DOA 400 spine 26" cut. Since my shoulder reconstruction surgery, unfortunately, they had to cut off 1/2" of tendon because it was torn/frayed so bad they had to have a clean edge to sew and anchor back into the bone. This changed my draw length to actually be longer because the tendon was stretched and anchored to a new area of bone plus 6mm of collar bone ground off to make room for all of the rebuild. The physical therapist was a great guy but a beast in therapy and stretched my shoulder over a 5 month period to move like never before!! Painful?? Hell frikkin yes! Results...excellent! However, less strength and I have to be cautious of retearing, so 70# draw is down to 60# now, DL is up a half in or a bit more and the arrows now hit my rest with a BH on.

I just ordered another dozen Victory VAP TKO shafts at 8.8 gpi and will build these for just hunting. The build with my chosen parts is 425grains. It'll be slower but have the weight.
I'll use the RIP XV 400's for TAC and 3D shoots.

350 spine

 

[Marble]

Easton Flatline DOA 400 spine 26" cut. Since my shoulder reconstruction surgery, unfortunately, they had to cut off 1/2" of tendon because it was torn/frayed so bad they had to have a clean edge to sew and anchor back into the bone. This changed my draw length to actually be longer because the tendon was stretched and anchored to a new area of bone plus 6mm of collar bone ground off to make room for all of the rebuild. The physical therapist was a great guy but a beast in therapy and stretched my shoulder over a 5 month period to move like never before!! Painful?? Hell frikkin yes! Results...excellent! However, less strength and I have to be cautious of retearing, so 70# draw is down to 60# now, DL is up a half in or a bit more and the arrows now hit my rest with a BH on.

I just ordered another dozen Victory VAP TKO shafts at 8.8 gpi and will build these for just hunting. The build with my chosen parts is 425grains. It'll be slower but have the weight.
I'll use the RIP XV 400's for TAC and 3D shoots.

Both my wife and I used to shoot 3d with one arrow through June, then switch to our hunting arrow and get ready for the season. It was a PITA. I got tired redoing sight tapes and sights. Especially with my wife's bow. We ended up getting a dedicated target bow for all that stuff. Might be something you consider for the future. They are generally 50-60 lbs DW.

A lot of guys want to shoot their hunting rig all year and in all of the shoots. Which I think is a great idea. Practice with what you are going to use right! My experience is that the practice I do with my target bow starting now through June translates right into my hunting bow.

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[BowtechStew]

I hear you on that! I thought about that too. I just bought a Trophy Ridge React Pro Trio 3 pin sight for my Bowtech. My buddy owns the archery shop I use and he's installing it and replacing string and cables. Once I sight that adjustable long range sight in, I really don't want to be resighting in just to change arrows for September -January.
I'm seriously looking at a new Bowtech right now to upgrade and to have a second bow. I'll keep the Btech Realm as my backup bow and use it for 3D and TAC while the new one just is my hunter.
Thanks for your input!!