Need a ton of support...plastics?

[kodiakfly]

I used the search function and didn't find exactly what I needed, and while there is good discussion on plastics, I didn't see anything from the past year or so and a bunch of "I'll probably try some plastics this year..." but few if any afterword reports.

Long story short, I broke my leg, numerous surgeries, and while I'm all healed up and at 100% strength, my ankle is "bad" and I do have scar tissue and some soft tissue issues. I'm good to carry the weight and do the mileage, but if my ankle gets too far out of "90*" or out of alignment, it can pinch/bind/hurt like hell and I can feel like collapsing because the pain is sharp. I'm able-bodied and able to hunt, but I have bad days and if my ankle is hurting, I need to keep it pretty solid.

I've had great success and comfort with Sportiva Lhotses and their Makalu last and that line of boots; dating back over a dozen years...Makalu, Eiger, Glacier Lhotse...I was going to get another pair of Lhotses and be done with it...but they've been discontinued and I missed the closeout sales! They're gone and I can't find a pair anywhere.

I need support, and I like mountaineering boots. I wear them around town daily when I'm not even climbing or hunting. Not so much to hold the weight, but to keep my ankle fairly aligned. With the Lhotses gone (and being a big LaSportiva fan), I'm looking at the Nepals. I got a pair Scarpa Mont Blancs, and they're comfy as hell, but they're more of a vertical ice boot and not much ankle there. But before I pull the trigger on the Nepals, what about plastics? Fill me in...pros? Cons? Cautions? Concerns? What to look for? Warm? Dry? Too warm?

I'd be new to plastics, as I've always preferred a 100% leather boot and never had the need for them until now when I've reentered the boot market and my beloved Lhotses are gone! I'm good wearing a hard as hell boot daily and across flat ground. These will be for Kodiak goat hunting, so not much elevation, but rock and uneven terrain.

Any info? Any feedback on the Nepals? I'll be in Anchortown in a few weeks and plan to hit my favorite stores, AMH and Barneys.

 

[Jager]

KodiakFly have you considered custom orthotics to help keep your ankle aligned?

 

[kodiakfly]

You mean beyond insoles? I use Superfeet in all of my boots, and I've tried ankle braces, but they cause problems with sweat, chafing/rubbing and blisters after a while.

 

[greyghostnw]

if the nepal evo fits you as it does me correctly and like them the lowa weisshorn is worth a look for ya for another option. keep in mind both these have insulation.
FYI zappos has free shipping both ways if that interests you. good luck.

 

[60x]

Plastics are without a doubt bullet proof and offer outstanding support. Folks have love hat relationships with them it seems. The biggest complaint I hear about them is on long flat approaches. They seem to irritate the shins, but if they do you can loosen up the laces on the shell a bit, just don't do that in the hills as you want them tight as possible.. Never really bothered me you just get used to them, the longest flat approach I wore mine on was 17 one way miles. I wear mine on all my hunts now even in lowlands and they also shine on the nasty tussocks on the haul road. They are a double boot so you have an inner bootie that also works as a comfy camp shoe. You can get glacier socks then you have the ability to cross streams with the traction of your boots or even the ability to put crampons on all while staying completely dry. They protect your feet from the constant pounding of the rocks when kicking your feet in for good foot holds, they protect you from the sharp arse shale that ruins leathers.. With the amazing support they make climbing in the rocks or hard pack when you can only get a small bite safer. I'm always amazed how I can put all my weight on just the tip of the toe on the boot and and not slip. The support while side hilling with extreme loads is second to none. They make it easier to kick in footholds in the nasty wet at time slick mountain grass when you don't have crampons..Most every sheep guide I work with wear them for a reason .. Not all plastics are the same either. Some are more stiff then others. Scarpa invernos are probably one of the stiffest, I wore those for years.. The most common for hunting is the koflach degre. I wear the older orange degres now( discontinued but I keep finding them like new on ebay)It's a bit softer shell without sacrificing support. I really like the scarpa omega. I was really wanting to try them. One of my guide buddies talks highly about them but they have been discontinued.

 

[Matt W.]

Kodiakfly, I'd call Lathrop and Sons. They sell both plastics and leather. I'd bet they have dealt with folks with similar issues. ?? Worth a call, IMO.

60x.. How do you your size your Degre's? The whole Eruo to US thing is confusing as is the concept that one size shell covers multiple sizes, but the liners are more size specific??

 

[AZ Vince]

Just a thought but have you worked with a Podiatrist in designing something for your foot to help with your foot alignment/ankle issues?
Having fractured my left ankle twice, and having knees that are shot, I wear orthodics in all my shoes to help keep my foot aligned. I won't wear any show without them.

 

[Jager]

Kodiakfly, I am talking about the same thing as AZ Vince, a podiatrist will take a mold of your foot so the 'footbed' (orthotic) will be exact, the same as a custom mouthgard fits. Many orthopedic issues start with incorrect foot/ankle alignment, as it is generally falling arches that cause these issues. Relying soley on supporting the ankle with boots and the like, actually weakens ankle strength in the long run, as supporting tissue becomes 'lazy'.

 

[kodiakfly]

The ankle itself is plenty strong. It's all the scar tissue I have built up in there that gets pinched and pulls and then hurts. I've had one surgery to remove it and the surgeon told me I'd likely need to have one or more down the road. The ankle will support the weight, it's just the pain when I rotate my ankle under a load to the outside or toe-down. I can go up-slope with no problem because I keep my ankle oriented toe-up ascending. Coming down, if I toe-down it hurts like hell as I land and rotate through to a level foot. The "weakness" comes when I get that pain and in order to relieve it, I naturally want to take the weight off and if it's bad enough, I naturally want to collapse off that leg. Does that make sense? I can do heavy squats, leg press, climb ladders, walk, etc. So if I can keep my foot within a range of 90* up/down and fairly centered left/right, I'm good to go.

I like my Lhotses and other mountaineering books because they hold my ankle fairly stable and I don't pinch any scar tissue or cartilage. It's also exacerbated with bad weather changes and when that happens it can be sore to even walk around the house barefoot or sit on the couch.

Don't ever break your leg...you'll never be the same.

 

[AZ Vince]

Don't ever break your leg...you'll never be the same.

Ain't that the truth. The same can be said for other major bones in the body too like the head of the humerus. I can't throw a ball without pain now and I broke it in 1993. Did the left ankle twice, 1993, 1994.

 

[60x]

Kodiakfly, I'd call Lathrop and Sons. They sell both plastics and leather. I'd bet they have dealt with folks with similar issues. ?? Worth a call, IMO.

60x.. How do you your size your Degre's? The whole Eruo to US thing is confusing as is the concept that one size shell covers multiple sizes, but the liners are more size specific??

High country yeah it's a pain. I'm going through it right now with trying to get some scarpas. My experience with koflach is that most people were at least 1/2 size bigger then thier street shoe. I actually wear a full size bigger in my koflach. Now with scarpas I am only a half size bigger. I just do the conversion on sizes on line and hope for the best. I forget the exacts but for the shell you put your foot in with socks on but no inner boot and push your foot forward till your toes touch the front and then measure the gap between the heel of the shell and your heel. I believe it should be something like a finger or a bit bigger. The best way it to go to Barney Bob or AMH and have them take care of you. I believe they can also stretch any problem areas and they also heat mold the booties. Also keep in mind if you go to Barney's you will want to try them with glacier socks on too to make sure they don't make them too tight

 

[kodiakfly]

How bad to Glacier Socks "not" breathe? I like the idea, but it just looks like sweaty leg syndrome to me.

I'll be in Anchortown in March and AMH is always my first stop. I'll be making a trip to Barney's as well.

 

[Easton]

Kodiakfly,

I have two ankles that are "bad" as well, I don't have to explain as you know what I mean. I have tried meindle, lowa sheep hunters and scarpa liskamm's and none of them gave me the support I needed. I was reluctant to buy plastics but after buying a pair of Koflach Degres, I will never wear anything else in the mountains unless something better comes along. They are awesome! I got the same size as my running shoe. For me they fit true to size. They flex very well from heal to toe making it relatively easy to walk. With a good pair of socks, there is no blistering or hot spots. Even when I try to "pop" my ankle, they keep it locked in place. The one thing though, they get a little warm during the summer months. I just bring extra pair of socks and I'm good. Get the bootie heat molded to your foot and they will fit very comfortably. I don't know about custom orthotics, for me, I have no ligaments left in my right ankle. It is held together by muscle tissue now. Ankle braces don't work inside a 10 inch boot either (can't get the boot on and the brace will rub and cause blistering if hiking long distances with heavy loads). I love my plastics.

 

[Matt W.]

Here is a good deal on some plastics if you wear size 10.5 US.
http://www.score-outdoors.com/shop/koflach-degree-mountaineering-boots-sz-10/

 

[60x]

How bad to Glacier Socks "not" breathe? I like the idea, but it just looks like sweaty leg syndrome to me.

I'll be in Anchortown in March and AMH is always my first stop. I'll be making a trip to Barney's as well.

When I wear them I keep them rolled down and tucked under my gaitors until needed and it's not so bad. They are well worth it when you have to constantly cross streams and also when climbing through the low wet scrub brush.

 

[Snyd]

Plastic fan here. I've got 6 seasons and who knows how many hundred miles on my Lowa Civettas. They are not as "clunky" as the Koflachs but the bellows on the Koflachs goes higher on the boot. I like the liner better on the Civettas. Breaths and has a rubber sole. Makes a nice camp moccasin. New Koflachs have an Intuitiion liner https://intuitionliners.com I have some Intuiiton liners for my downhill ski boots. Nice, but I thnk they'd be pretty warm unless it was winter in the Koflachs. Koflach guys with the Intuition liners will have to chime in. But, like with any boot, it's what fits your foot. Koflachs were to narrow in the toe and wide in the heel for me. Civettas fit me better. And I do like that they seem more streamline.

According to their website, AMH carries the Civetta. http://www.alaskamountaineering.com/civetta-climbing-boot/
The Civetta Extreme has an insulted liner and is for cold weather. Otherwise they're the same shell. I haven't used that boot. If your a Bigfoot they make em up to size 16.

The Civettas aren't bad for walking-in. That's what I usually do. 10-14 mile "approaches" last 2 years. The upper cuff is softer and more flexible than the lower shell. I found out early on not to over tighten them. Even in rough terrain. I've used em snowshoeing, in the woods cutting trails this fall, etc. Great support and protection.

I've never had a blister or any foot problems at all with the Civettas and I've hauled over 100lbs in rough stuff for lots and lots of miles in all kinds of sheep terrain a guy encounters. And some of that with soaked feet from going over the top. But, with plastics, you still have the support and the liner holds the foot, any slippage is between the shell and liner. Pull the liners when it's time to dry out. I do find that when I start wearing them in the summer on my training hikes that my feet get toughened up to them. The are plastic and therefore there are pressure areas that have gotten soft over the winter Not a big deal. Just part of getting the feet in sheep shape!

My soles are finally rounded off on the toes and edges from scree sliding, rocks, etc. and my liners are packed out some. But the boots are still intact and serviceable. I just bought another pair off ebay. Black Civettas Military surplus. 20 bucks. Couldn't pass it up at that price in my size. These look to have a Lowa proprietary sole instead of the ol Vibram. I've seen this sole on the Military boots online quite a bit. I'll see how they do.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lowa-Civett...993?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23354cd4b1

I've used Glacier Socks for river crossings but usually don't wear them for general walking. Just Gaitors. I think I'm going to try a pair of these knee high gore-tex boot liners for hiking in wet conditions. They look like they are cut in a way that will allow them to fit over the liner. I've found myself with wet feet a few times after a long slog in wet mushy ground, ankle/shin high stream crossings, etc. Water finds its way in. I think this could be the hot setup. Well, hopefully not too hot but breathable A guy could be waterproof and breathable up to the knees. They make em shorter as well.

 

[jhall239]

The ankle itself is plenty strong. It's all the scar tissue I have built up in there that gets pinched and pulls and then hurts. I've had one surgery to remove it and the surgeon told me I'd likely need to have one or more down the road. The ankle will support the weight, it's just the pain when I rotate my ankle under a load to the outside or toe-down. I can go up-slope with no problem because I keep my ankle oriented toe-up ascending. Coming down, if I toe-down it hurts like hell as I land and rotate through to a level foot. The "weakness" comes when I get that pain and in order to relieve it, I naturally want to take the weight off and if it's bad enough, I naturally want to collapse off that leg. Does that make sense? I can do heavy squats, leg press, climb ladders, walk, etc. So if I can keep my foot within a range of 90* up/down and fairly centered left/right, I'm good to go.

I like my Lhotses and other mountaineering books because they hold my ankle fairly stable and I don't pinch any scar tissue or cartilage. It's also exacerbated with bad weather changes and when that happens it can be sore to even walk around the house barefoot or sit on the couch.

Don't ever break your leg...you'll never be the same.

Kodiak, you ankle sounds like my twin and I don't wish it on anybody, that said, Lathrops customized me a pair of Hanwags three years ago

and they are just now starting to show signs of wear and me noticing the ankle again. Thats great for me as I normally only get one season out of a pair of boots. These have lots of miles on them too, in white tail, sheep, moose and elk country

I have though about plastics but I dont really know enough about them

 

[kodiakfly]

I have though about plastics but I dont really know enough about them

Same here, which is why I asked. It sounds like they may be what the doctor ordered, so to speak.

I've used Glacier Socks for river crossings but usually don't wear them for general walking. Just Gaitors. I think I'm going to try a pair of these knee high gore-tex boot liners for hiking in wet conditions. They look like they are cut in a way that will allow them to fit over the liner. I've found myself with wet feet a few times after a long slog in wet mushy ground, ankle/shin high stream crossings, etc. Water finds its way in. I think this could be the hot setup. Well, hopefully not too hot but breathable A guy could be waterproof and breathable up to the knees. They make em shorter as well.

Great post. Thanks for all the info. Have you ordered from this place before? Those GTX socks look pretty affordable...as long as I don't eat it on shipping or tariffs. But those do look like a good alternative to the full on Glacier Socks. Not tons of stream crossings while goat hunting, so I think the Glacier Socks may be overkill here.

Kodiakfly,

I have two ankles that are "bad" as well, I don't have to explain as you know what I mean. I have tried meindle, lowa sheep hunters and scarpa liskamm's and none of them gave me the support I needed. I was reluctant to buy plastics but after buying a pair of Koflach Degres, I will never wear anything else in the mountains unless something better comes along. They are awesome! I got the same size as my running shoe. For me they fit true to size. They flex very well from heal to toe making it relatively easy to walk. With a good pair of socks, there is no blistering or hot spots. Even when I try to "pop" my ankle, they keep it locked in place. The one thing though, they get a little warm during the summer months. I just bring extra pair of socks and I'm good. Get the bootie heat molded to your foot and they will fit very comfortably. I don't know about custom orthotics, for me, I have no ligaments left in my right ankle. It is held together by muscle tissue now. Ankle braces don't work inside a 10 inch boot either (can't get the boot on and the brace will rub and cause blistering if hiking long distances with heavy loads). I love my plastics.

I think I'm leaning more and more toward plastics for sure, especially since I can't get Lhotses anymore.

 

[Snyd]

I haven't ordered any of those socks yet nor have I narrowed down who to get them from. They show up on ebay and there are a few other sites. I just grabbed that pic off that sight as a reference.

 

[boom]

i'd get an ankle brace.

they can be simple "wraps" or elaborate "aircast" types. they go on under your regular boots.

i broke my leg when a vintage (read: 100% steel) car ran me and my motorcycle over. life changing event for me. not so much my ankles, but my knee..i cannot kneel on my knee anymore. not for long anyway.