Need a lighter, longer range deer rifle - Update @ No. 74

[Smithb9841]

Browning X-Bolt

 

[wind gypsy]

I was planning on finally getting into handloading specifically for this rifle. PRC allows for using magnum rifle primers, which are around. But as you mention, CM has less recoil.

A lot of guys have been mentioning Tikkas here, so I took a look and the T3x Lite Polyfade and Roughtech are interesting.

FYI, you could use LR or LR Magnum primers in both creedmoor or PRC. Magnum primers are a bit overkill for a creedmoor but they'd work and current primer availability is hardly a good basis for cartridge selection.

 

[HuntnPack]

For you “Other” option, consider looking at Seekins Precision. Either their PH2 or the Element.

 

[JakeM51]

Defiance ANTI with a bartlein barrel in a Mcmillan or manners sounds good. Trigger tech two stage, DBM.

 

[C. Stockwell]

Well, you guys talked me into getting a Winchester Model 70EWSS in 6.5CM in the future, probably after this season so I'll have time to put everything together. I've seen and handled some modern M70s and they all have nice fit and finish and a smooth action. What's held me back with the M70s is the lack of a threaded barrel, but having a gunsmith thread a barrel is easy enough.

There's also the Featherweight M70s but I think the polymer stocked EWSS will hold up better in snow and rain.

For a scope, I'm thinking of a Swarovski Z8i 2-16x50 with ballistic turret and 4A-I reticle. I have a pair of Swarovski binoculars and the optical quality is rather impressive. The 2-16x50 is also weighs around 1.5lbs. Other scopes around that category can get heavy, like the S&B 3-21x50 that weighs 2.04lbs. There is the Z6i 2-12x50 that weighs 1.38lbs, but I think I'd rather have the extra magnification over saving 0.14lbs.

I did some math and with a pair of Talley integrated rings, the M70 + Z8i + rings would weigh 8.54lbs. Pound and a half lighter than what I'm using now and has a much longer potential range. A bipod and or a sling would add weight, but I can put those in my bag when I'm not using them.

 

[Reddawg]

The Howas with hogue stocks on them are incredibly light if a little noisy...

 

[Stefan]

I hope you enjoy it!

 

[freebird]

Have you checked out kimbers? I have a 280 AI. Rifle is right around 5 1/2 pounds

 

[Mackay Sagebrush]

For over a decade now I have been recommending a combination that has proven to be as close to literally "plug and play" as it can get.

A Tikka T3 in .308
An SWFA
Talley lightweight rings.

In the last few years the 6.5 manbun has come on strong, and it is an excellent cartridge. Due to the hype of the industry there are literally tens of thousands who genuinely believe it is capable of replacing the .300 win mag, and can do feats not seen since the last coming of Christ. No cartridge today will cause more debate and silliness, and unrealistic claims (and using of the words "systems", as in "I run a 6.5 bro-dude in my shooting system" bro......dude ) but that is a whole other topic. As a guy who might have shot one or two 6.5s in the last 30+ years such as these:

Shown left to right, with a .308, A 6.5 Swede, 6.5 Bro-Dude (Creedmoor), .260 Rem almost hadAhitButmissedAgain. ** Side bar, if Big Green would have actually built the .260 as a .260 AI and marketed it like Hornady, I doubt the 6.5 CM would have been bothered with, as it is (roughly) a 150-200 FPS faster and still a short action. Plus you can make .260 brass out of .308, though the doughnuts can be a pain. I have used a good bit of M118 LR once fired brass in my .260 and that is the only real PITA.

Anyways back on topic..

I find it all funny.



Anyways, grin..

For a long time before the Creedmoor came onto the scene and was supported by the industry (Hornady and others did a fantastic job) the .308 was pretty much the exclusive choice I recommended. The reason being is that the odds of taking a Tikka T3 .308 out of the box and putting an SWFA on it, and not getting a sub MOA shooter were exceedingly slim. As in I have literally had more than two dozen people follow the recommendation, and exactly 1 needed help. That one needed a bit of trimming with a box knife on a contact point on the composite stock before it settled in and was shooting tight little sub moa clusters with Lapua Scenars.

The advantage to the .308s are that if you intend to shoot a lot, you can shoot literally thousands upon thousands of rounds through the hammer forged barrels and they still maintain excellent accuracy. This is not the case with smaller cartridges such as high performance 6mms, 6.5s. There are trade off for everything and there is a balance. With the .308 you are going to get some more recoil than a 6.5, there is no question.

The 6.5 CM is very easy to shoot well, recoil wise. If that is a significant factor, then take it into account. However, T3s can be had with threaded muzzles, so a brake can mitigate that.

Real world example: My daughter and I both have T3s (.308) with barrels that were cut to 20"s and brakes installed (prior to this being a factory option) and recoil is not a factor for either of us. We do however use hearing protection when hunting. She was less than 100 pounds when I switched her from a custom 6mm rem T3 to a .308 T3 with a brake. When asked, she could not tell the difference between a 6mm w/o a brake and a .308 with full power ammo and a brake installed.

I wanted to set her up with one rifle she could use for the rest of her adult life that was brick simple and there would never be a need to upgrade. I got her a T3 .308, put the brake on it, and topped it with a 6x SWFA MIL/MIL. She is deadly with it.

At the ranges you are discussing shooting, I don't think there is a real advantage to either in terms of real world performance. At 600 yards and under on deer, the drops and wind is going to be negligible for either with an optimal load, and a deer would not know any different, as you should expect complete penetration.

Speaking of penetration, At 615 yards shooting a 155 grain Scenar from a 20" .308, I hit a cow in the front shoulder, and the bullet was caught on the opposite side, hide. This is the only time I have ever not had complete penetration on broadside shots, though I try for behind the shoulder, double lung shots as a general rule. That cow was very slowly walking and I was off a few inches, but at that distance and for the shooting position I was using, (Using a mountain mahogany branch and a jacket as a rest)I was satisfied.

If larger animals are potentially on your plate in the future, such a moose, then either a 6.5 bro-dude of .308 may be a solid choice. The .308 is generally cheaper to reload, and the projectiles are cheaper, and brass is incredibly abundant. Once fired brass is super easy to find (during normal times). Even during times of drought, you can still find .308 brass.

If you intend to shoot a bunch, as in thousands of rounds, (as a guy who shoots both) I would opt for the .308. A 6.5 as a second rifle in the future would not be a bad option, but for a high volume shooter, the .308 is a top choice as far as I am concerned. You can go everywhere in the world, from Amman Jordan to Akiachak Alaska and find some .308 ammo if you look hard enough.

Today it is a "Boring" cartridge to even bring up. That said, I consider it the Chevy 350 1/2 4x4 pickup of the cartridge world. Yep, you can find individual cartridges that will each do something better, but few will do better as an "All-around, bring home the groceries, parts are available everywhere, and they just keep making, them year after year" type rig.

CHEERS

 

[fightthenoise]

For over a decade now I have been recommending a combination that has proven to be as close to literally "plug and play" as it can get.

A Tikka T3 in .308
An SWFA
Talley lightweight rings.

In the last few years the 6.5 manbun has come on strong, and it is an excellent cartridge. Due to the hype of the industry there are literally tens of thousands who genuinely believe it is capable of replacing the .300 win mag, and can do feats not seen since the last coming of Christ. No cartridge today will cause more debate and silliness, and unrealistic claims (and using of the words "systems", as in "I run a 6.5 bro-dude in my shooting system" bro......dude ) but that is a whole other topic. As a guy who might have shot one or two 6.5s in the last 30+ years such as these:

Shown left to right, with a .308, A 6.5 Swede, 6.5 Bro-Dude (Creedmoor), .260 Rem almost hadAhitButmissedAgain. ** Side bar, if Big Green would have actually built the .260 as a .260 AI and marketed it like Hornady, I doubt the 6.5 CM would have been bothered with, as it is (roughly) a 150-200 FPS faster and still a short action. Plus you can make .260 brass out of .308, though the doughnuts can be a pain. I have used a good bit of M118 LR once fired brass in my .260 and that is the only real PITA.

Anyways back on topic..

I find it all funny.



Anyways, grin..

For a long time before the Creedmoor came onto the scene and was supported by the industry (Hornady and others did a fantastic job) the .308 was pretty much the exclusive choice I recommended. The reason being is that the odds of taking a Tikka T3 .308 out of the box and putting an SWFA on it, and not getting a sub MOA shooter were exceedingly slim. As in I have literally had more than two dozen people follow the recommendation, and exactly 1 needed help. That one needed a bit of trimming with a box knife on a contact point on the composite stock before it settled in and was shooting tight little sub moa clusters with Lapua Scenars.

The advantage to the .308s are that if you intend to shoot a lot, you can shoot literally thousands upon thousands of rounds through the hammer forged barrels and they still maintain excellent accuracy. This is not the case with smaller cartridges such as high performance 6mms, 6.5s. There are trade off for everything and there is a balance. With the .308 you are going to get some more recoil than a 6.5, there is no question.

The 6.5 CM is very easy to shoot well, recoil wise. If that is a significant factor, then take it into account. However, T3s can be had with threaded muzzles, so a brake can mitigate that.

Real world example: My daughter and I both have T3s (.308) with barrels that were cut to 20"s and brakes installed (prior to this being a factory option) and recoil is not a factor for either of us. We do however use hearing protection when hunting. She was less than 100 pounds when I switched her from a custom 6mm rem T3 to a .308 T3 with a brake. When asked, she could not tell the difference between a 6mm w/o a brake and a .308 with full power ammo and a brake installed.

I wanted to set her up with one rifle she could use for the rest of her adult life that was brick simple and there would never be a need to upgrade. I got her a T3 .308, put the brake on it, and topped it with a 6x SWFA MIL/MIL. She is deadly with it.

At the ranges you are discussing shooting, I don't think there is a real advantage to either in terms of real world performance. At 600 yards and under on deer, the drops and wind is going to be negligible for either with an optimal load, and a deer would not know any different, as you should expect complete penetration.

Speaking of penetration, At 615 yards shooting a 155 grain Scenar from a 20" .308, I hit a cow in the front shoulder, and the bullet was caught on the opposite side, hide. This is the only time I have ever not had complete penetration on broadside shots, though I try for behind the shoulder, double lung shots as a general rule. That cow was very slowly walking and I was off a few inches, but at that distance and for the shooting position I was using, (Using a mountain mahogany branch and a jacket as a rest)I was satisfied.

If larger animals are potentially on your plate in the future, such a moose, then either a 6.5 bro-dude of .308 may be a solid choice. The .308 is generally cheaper to reload, and the projectiles are cheaper, and brass is incredibly abundant. Once fired brass is super easy to find (during normal times). Even during times of drought, you can still find .308 brass.

If you intend to shoot a bunch, as in thousands of rounds, (as a guy who shoots both) I would opt for the .308. A 6.5 as a second rifle in the future would not be a bad option, but for a high volume shooter, the .308 is a top choice as far as I am concerned. You can go everywhere in the world, from Amman Jordan to Akiachak Alaska and find some .308 ammo if you look hard enough.

Today it is a "Boring" cartridge to even bring up. That said, I consider it the Chevy 350 1/2 4x4 pickup of the cartridge world. Yep, you can find individual cartridges that will each do something better, but few will do better as an "All-around, bring home the groceries, parts are available everywhere, and they just keep making, them year after year" type rig.

CHEERS

I don’t think I disagree with any of the objective points in this post but I just can’t get behind being so vehemently opposed to something as innocuous as a rifle cartridge. I’m not proud to say I’ve been judgement toward folks but never about their choice of rifle cartridge and definitely never their hairstyle. Catch more flies with honey or whatever they say I guess.

 

[Lawnboi]

For over a decade now I have been recommending a combination that has proven to be as close to literally "plug and play" as it can get.

A Tikka T3 in .308
An SWFA
Talley lightweight rings.

In the last few years the 6.5 manbun has come on strong, and it is an excellent cartridge. Due to the hype of the industry there are literally tens of thousands who genuinely believe it is capable of replacing the .300 win mag, and can do feats not seen since the last coming of Christ. No cartridge today will cause more debate and silliness, and unrealistic claims (and using of the words "systems", as in "I run a 6.5 bro-dude in my shooting system" bro......dude ) but that is a whole other topic. As a guy who might have shot one or two 6.5s in the last 30+ years such as these:

Shown left to right, with a .308, A 6.5 Swede, 6.5 Bro-Dude (Creedmoor), .260 Rem almost hadAhitButmissedAgain. ** Side bar, if Big Green would have actually built the .260 as a .260 AI and marketed it like Hornady, I doubt the 6.5 CM would have been bothered with, as it is (roughly) a 150-200 FPS faster and still a short action. Plus you can make .260 brass out of .308, though the doughnuts can be a pain. I have used a good bit of M118 LR once fired brass in my .260 and that is the only real PITA.

Anyways back on topic..

I find it all funny.



Anyways, grin..

For a long time before the Creedmoor came onto the scene and was supported by the industry (Hornady and others did a fantastic job) the .308 was pretty much the exclusive choice I recommended. The reason being is that the odds of taking a Tikka T3 .308 out of the box and putting an SWFA on it, and not getting a sub MOA shooter were exceedingly slim. As in I have literally had more than two dozen people follow the recommendation, and exactly 1 needed help. That one needed a bit of trimming with a box knife on a contact point on the composite stock before it settled in and was shooting tight little sub moa clusters with Lapua Scenars.

The advantage to the .308s are that if you intend to shoot a lot, you can shoot literally thousands upon thousands of rounds through the hammer forged barrels and they still maintain excellent accuracy. This is not the case with smaller cartridges such as high performance 6mms, 6.5s. There are trade off for everything and there is a balance. With the .308 you are going to get some more recoil than a 6.5, there is no question.

The 6.5 CM is very easy to shoot well, recoil wise. If that is a significant factor, then take it into account. However, T3s can be had with threaded muzzles, so a brake can mitigate that.

Real world example: My daughter and I both have T3s (.308) with barrels that were cut to 20"s and brakes installed (prior to this being a factory option) and recoil is not a factor for either of us. We do however use hearing protection when hunting. She was less than 100 pounds when I switched her from a custom 6mm rem T3 to a .308 T3 with a brake. When asked, she could not tell the difference between a 6mm w/o a brake and a .308 with full power ammo and a brake installed.

I wanted to set her up with one rifle she could use for the rest of her adult life that was brick simple and there would never be a need to upgrade. I got her a T3 .308, put the brake on it, and topped it with a 6x SWFA MIL/MIL. She is deadly with it.

At the ranges you are discussing shooting, I don't think there is a real advantage to either in terms of real world performance. At 600 yards and under on deer, the drops and wind is going to be negligible for either with an optimal load, and a deer would not know any different, as you should expect complete penetration.

Speaking of penetration, At 615 yards shooting a 155 grain Scenar from a 20" .308, I hit a cow in the front shoulder, and the bullet was caught on the opposite side, hide. This is the only time I have ever not had complete penetration on broadside shots, though I try for behind the shoulder, double lung shots as a general rule. That cow was very slowly walking and I was off a few inches, but at that distance and for the shooting position I was using, (Using a mountain mahogany branch and a jacket as a rest)I was satisfied.

If larger animals are potentially on your plate in the future, such a moose, then either a 6.5 bro-dude of .308 may be a solid choice. The .308 is generally cheaper to reload, and the projectiles are cheaper, and brass is incredibly abundant. Once fired brass is super easy to find (during normal times). Even during times of drought, you can still find .308 brass.

If you intend to shoot a bunch, as in thousands of rounds, (as a guy who shoots both) I would opt for the .308. A 6.5 as a second rifle in the future would not be a bad option, but for a high volume shooter, the .308 is a top choice as far as I am concerned. You can go everywhere in the world, from Amman Jordan to Akiachak Alaska and find some .308 ammo if you look hard enough.

Today it is a "Boring" cartridge to even bring up. That said, I consider it the Chevy 350 1/2 4x4 pickup of the cartridge world. Yep, you can find individual cartridges that will each do something better, but few will do better as an "All-around, bring home the groceries, parts are available everywhere, and they just keep making, them year after year" type rig.

CHEERS

Man I bet an old ought six shooter would tear you up.

 

[C. Stockwell]

I don’t think I disagree with any of the objective points in this post but I just can’t get behind being so vehemently opposed to something as innocuous as a rifle cartridge. I’m not proud to say I’ve been judgement toward folks but never about their choice of rifle cartridge and definitely never their hairstyle. Catch more flies with honey or whatever they say I guess.

OP here: I'm quite familiar with 7.62 NATO and .308 Winchester because I've owned a M1A and I currently own two FAL clones. I agree, he could've just asked "have you considered a .308?", to which I could say "yes."

.308 is fine, I just want less recoil and a more efficient cartridge, especially in a light bolt action.

 

[Lawnboi]

Honestly OP, I think you need both. A creed for practice and maybe some smaller game hunting, and a prc for larger longer.

Reason being is you say classes and training. Good things, creed components are easy to find, cheap to load for with the good stuff, and factory ammo is abundant. Barrel life is not bad either.

Then look at the prc you have a magnum cartridge, Likely less barrel life, more recoil which won’t help with you learning, especially shooting positional.

Any way you can swing both? Could shoot the same bullet even.

Me personally, I’m sticking with lighter weight cartridges until my shooting determines that I need a magnum. That threshold is different for everyone, heck there’s guys that think you need a 300WM to shoot deer at 100.

If all I had to shoot long range was a magnum, I’d be doing a hell of a lot less shooting. And when it comes to stretching distance, it’s all about learning your gun, that takes spent ammo.

Personally if I were you I’d buy a tikka in the creed, throw it in a krg bravo, with a good scope that tracks and shoot the shit out of it. Your going to spend what you would on a prc in ammo learning, at that time you will know enough to be able to tell yourself what you need to hit targets with enough velocity at the ranges you do. Then build yourself a prc or bigger. This is pretty much where I’m at.... and Im hunting with a 223 rem this fall.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

My semi custom Tikka T3X Superlite in .260 is a perfect mountain deer hunting rifle. Bare rifle is 5 lbs 4 ounces.

It’s 7 lbs 6 ounces field ready with 4 rounds in it and a Meopta MeoPro 4-14 x44 scope. Talley lightweight rings and bases.

Stupidly accurate and holds groups really well even when stretching it out with both factory and hand load ammo. It’s killed animals past 1,000 yards in both California and Idaho.

Here’s a quick group from 400 yards rechecking zero last week before whitetail rifle in Minnesota. Laying prone in a field with no rear rest simulating a quick field shot. 5 shots, no break between shots. Factory Hornady 129 grain.




The little 129 SST smacked down this 236 lb whitetail at 200 yards. They grow them big up on the Minnesota/Manitoba border. Broadside lung was mush. He ran 20 yards and collapsed hard.

 

[C. Stockwell]

Honestly OP, I think you need both. A creed for practice and maybe some smaller game hunting, and a prc for larger longer.

Reason being is you say classes and training. Good things, creed components are easy to find, cheap to load for with the good stuff, and factory ammo is abundant. Barrel life is not bad either.

Then look at the prc you have a magnum cartridge, Likely less barrel life, more recoil which won’t help with you learning, especially shooting positional.

Any way you can swing both? Could shoot the same bullet even.

Me personally, I’m sticking with lighter weight cartridges until my shooting determines that I need a magnum. That threshold is different for everyone, heck there’s guys that think you need a 300WM to shoot deer at 100.

If all I had to shoot long range was a magnum, I’d be doing a hell of a lot less shooting. And when it comes to stretching distance, it’s all about learning your gun, that takes spent ammo.

Personally if I were you I’d buy a tikka in the creed, throw it in a krg bravo, with a good scope that tracks and shoot the shit out of it. Your going to spend what you would on a prc in ammo learning, at that time you will know enough to be able to tell yourself what you need to hit targets with enough velocity at the ranges you do. Then build yourself a prc or bigger. This is pretty much where I’m at.... and Im hunting with a 223 rem this fall.

Probably could get both eventually but I think I'll start with 6.5CM. I agree, I'll probably look into magnums later, like 6.5 PRC, after I spend some time shooting and hunting with the CM.

 

[Lawnboi]

On top of all I said above. The tikka is becoming an awesome action to build off of

 

[Marbles]

Well, you guys talked me into getting a Winchester Model 70EWSS in 6.5CM in the future, probably after this season so I'll have time to put everything together. I've seen and handled some modern M70s and they all have nice fit and finish and a smooth action. What's held me back with the M70s is the lack of a threaded barrel, but having a gunsmith thread a barrel is easy enough.

There's also the Featherweight M70s but I think the polymer stocked EWSS will hold up better in snow and rain.

For a scope, I'm thinking of a Swarovski Z8i 2-16x50 with ballistic turret and 4A-I reticle. I have a pair of Swarovski binoculars and the optical quality is rather impressive. The 2-16x50 is also weighs around 1.5lbs. Other scopes around that category can get heavy, like the S&B 3-21x50 that weighs 2.04lbs. There is the Z6i 2-12x50 that weighs 1.38lbs, but I think I'd rather have the extra magnification over saving 0.14lbs.

I did some math and with a pair of Talley integrated rings, the M70 + Z8i + rings would weigh 8.54lbs. Pound and a half lighter than what I'm using now and has a much longer potential range. A bipod and or a sling would add weight, but I can put those in my bag when I'm not using them.

I would take a stainless featherweight and drop it in a McMillan stock. I just don't like the feel of the Bell and Carlson on the EWSS. Regardless, M70s are nice rifles,

 

[EmperorMA]

I would take a stainless featherweight and drop it in a McMillan stock. I just don't like the feel of the Bell and Carlson on the EWSS. Regardless, M70s are nice rifles,

This. ^^^^

I would also strongly consider the Browning X-Bolt Hells Canyon Speed. I know five guys who shoot these and all five are sub-MOA right out of the box with several types of factory ammo. Two are 6.5 Creedmoor, one .270 Win, one .270 WSM and one 6.5 PRC.

These rifles are almost a no-brainer for me, seeing all of them shoot so well. I’d get one in 6.5 Creedmoor and Rok on.

Also, don’t forget that the 6.5 Creedmoor running a sleek 130-class bullet like the 129 Nosler ABLR will run neck & neck out to 600 yards in terms of velocity and bullet drop with the 6.5 PRC shooting slippery 140-class hunting bullets such as the 142 Nosler ABLR.

No animal will know the difference when hit with either bullet from 6 - 600 yards.

 

[260madman]

I’m liking my new Hells Canyon Speed. 140 Accubonds are stacking on top of each other along with 120 and 140 NBTs. Trigger could be a bit lighter but otherwise it’s working well for me. My Howa Alpine is shooting just as good. Hard to choose between the 2.

 

[Mackay Sagebrush]

I don’t think I disagree with any of the objective points in this post but I just can’t get behind being so vehemently opposed to something as innocuous as a rifle cartridge. I’m not proud to say I’ve been judgement toward folks but never about their choice of rifle cartridge and definitely never their hairstyle. Catch more flies with honey or whatever they say I guess.

It is strange (for example) a group of people can be given information on how to build a chair and one or two end up building a box or kindling. Grin.

How anyone would interpret a person the post I wrote a being "vehemently opposed to a rifle cartridge" makes me shake my head. Even more so when I mention the fact that I own one, and show the cartridge with other 6.5s I have been shooting for years.

Then I further state it is very easy to shoot well, in terms of recoil (having that advantage over the .308).

I then went on to recommend the 6.5 CM as a second rifle (you know, the cartridge I vehemently oppose, even though I own/shoot one).

The point which was obviously missed was that if you want to get good at longer range shooting, it is advisable to shoot a lot, and 6mms and 6.5mms have a rather short barrel life. The barrel life on a good .308 barrel like a good T3 barrel, is significantly longer. The OP mentioned that he wanted to become a proficient shooter, so it made sense to recommend a cartridge that would allow him to do that.

BTW, a pic of a long loaded Berger VLD 140 in a T3 long action mag, to get an idea what can be done with the action.

6.5 Manbun with the topknot untied.. Grin.