My Tikka groups suck

[wind gypsy]

44 grains of h4350 behind a 140 is givin' er!

Looks like things are trending well.

 

[philcox]

44 grains of h4350 behind a 140 is givin' er!

Looks like things are trending well.

I might have made a clerical error. The 130 is 44.0, and the 140 was 43.0 on the H4350. But in any case, I like the groups I am getting with hunter for what I want to use it for, so happy with that. Now to go shoot

 

[AZ_Hunter]

Ok, went to the range today. Shot the following loads:

• 140 ELDM @ 42.0 RL16, 43.0 H4350, and 46.0 Hunter
• 130 TMK @ 43.0 RL16, 44.0 H4350, and 45.5 Hunter

My new LH 6.5 CM in my XLR Stock. Shot 5 of each, then the other 5 of each. All shot Lefty.

Summary: My 130 TMK over 45.5g Hunter is as good a load as I can shoot. The 140 over H4350 MIGHT be better, as I had a better group because I know I jerked on one (knew it when the shot went off, and verified on video). With that said, while that group was smaller, I like the MR and grouping on the 130 TMK over Hunter. So now I can just load up a bunch and practice. I'll use that in my NRL Hunter even too (since Skills has no Power Factor requirement).

My results:

View attachment 824275View attachment 824277View attachment 824276

Actual H4350 Velocity avg was 2920, and RL18 was 2832. I transposed them on the markup.
View attachment 824273View attachment 824272View attachment 824274

You’re good to go. Now do a 30 round group for zero.

 

[JGRaider]

I might have made a clerical error. The 130 is 44.0, and the 140 was 43.0 on the H4350. But in any case, I like the groups I am getting with hunter for what I want to use it for, so happy with that. Now to go shoot

What did your chrono say?

 

[philcox]

What did your chrono say?

• 130 TMK 44 H4350 - Avg 2920
• 130 TMK 43 RL16 - Avg 2832
• 130 TMK 45.5 Hunter - Avg 2818
• 140 ELDM 43 H4350 - 2800
• 140 ELDM 42 RL16 - 2705
• 140 ELDM 46.0 Hunter - 2800

This barrel now has 104 rounds down it.

 

[Lawnboi]

44 grains of h4350 behind a 140 is givin' er!

Looks like things are trending well.

I bet all the guns would shoot better if they weren’t pushing 70k psi.

OP, try 41.5 of h4350 and a 140.

 

[HuntHarder]

Try some Bergers out.

 

[philcox]

I bet all the guns would shoot better if they weren’t pushing 70k psi.

OP, try 41.5 of h4350 and a 140.

Was 43.0g on the 140. According to GRL that is 62056 psi, 91.8 load ratio, 100% burn out of my 21.25” barrel

I’ll give the 41.5 a try, intersting that only 99.2% burn though.


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[mddat]

GRT is good for finding a starting point but I wouldn’t fully trust what it spits out for psi, lots a variables and some powders in there are better calibrated than others, I guarantee that at 43grs with 140 eld you are over pressure

 

[Lawnboi]

Was 43.0g on the 140. According to GRL that is 62056 psi, 91.8 load ratio, 100% burn out of my 21.25” barrel

I’ll give the 41.5 a try, intersting that only 99.2% burn though.


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Regardless of what grl says 43 grains of h4350 in a 6.5cm is pushing it.

 

[Castle Rock]

My regular load in my CM is 42.5 with the 147, brass holds up fine

 

[Tanner]

41.5 of 4350 under a 140 ELDM has shot great out of several 6.5 CMs for me. I wouldn’t fire 43gr in my T3X with any hopes of using the brass again…

FWIW 41.5 over a CCI-200 is going 2630 out of my 19”. Accuracy has been excellent out to 800.

 

[pathnz]

Yet he has a theory of what causes it.

Bryan Litz explicitly does not believe in rifles shooting "tighter at longer than closer ranges". You have misunderstood or have been misled.

Bryan Litz Ballistics

These are examples of groups fired on our 100-300 yard 'shoot-thru' target. Bullets pass thru the paper at 100 yards and continue on to 300 where you see a bigger version of the same group. This...

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[TaperPin]

Bryan Litz explicitly does not believe in rifles shooting "tighter at longer than closer ranges". You have misunderstood or have been misled.

Bryan Litz Ballistics

These are examples of groups fired on our 100-300 yard 'shoot-thru' target. Bullets pass thru the paper at 100 yards and continue on to 300 where you see a bigger version of the same group. This...

www.facebook.com

I’ve heard the words out of his mouth. You should believe what you believe. I’ve seen it so nothing he or anyone else says is going to change my mind, or the minds of many experienced shooters and gunsmiths. Bullets are not all flying in perfectly straight lines. They just aren’t.

Shooting a few guns that don’t exhibit this through a double target isn't disproving anything. Honestly if he has changed his mind, it doesn’t erase the work others have done that clearly shows it. He’s very big into things having to fit his computer simulations, which I’ll never buy into as an exact representation of real world quirks.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I’ve heard the words out of his mouth. You should believe what you believe. I’ve seen it so nothing he or anyone else says is going to change my mind, or the minds of many experienced shooters and gunsmiths. Bullets are not all flying in perfectly straight lines. They just aren’t.

Shooting a few guns that don’t exhibit this through a double target isn't disproving anything. Honestly if he has changed his mind, it doesn’t erase the work others have done that clearly shows it. He’s very big into things having to fit his computer simulations, which I’ll never buy into as an exact representation of real world quirks.

He also used to believe in seating depth tuning and other traditional methods of testing. It wasn't until a couple years ago when he was subjected to some contracts that required extremely large sample testing that some of his views changed, he talked about it on a podcast. IIRC, he has an open offer for anyone that has a rifle and load that will shoot less dispersion at a farther distance than it does shorter, and no one has taken him up on it. Because you may have seen it happen with your own eyes, but I would be willing to bet it wasn't with valid samples. For it to be true, it has to be repeatable. This is where those claims typically fall short.

 

[khuber84]

The people that shoot smaller groups at 400y VS 100y prob have parallax errors going on......

 

[mwallen.wv]

Buy some quality factory ammo

X2

 

[longrangelead]

At the suggestion of [mention]ResearchinStuff [/mention] posting this here

Background
Rifles:
- 7PRC - Tikka 7 Rem Mag action, 20” C6 7PRC barrel, Mesa Precision stock, UM Rings, Maven RS 1.2, 8.5 lb
- 6.5CM - Tikka Superlite, Barrel cut to 21”, OEM stock with vert grip, UM Rings, Maven RS 1.2, 8.2 lb
- 223 - Tikka Lite, Barrel cut to 18”, OEM stock with vert grip, UM Rings, Maven RS 1.2. 8.25 lb

Loads:
- 7 PRC: 168 LRX, 67.5g RL26, COAL 3.20, ADG Brass, CCI 250
- 6.5 CM: 127 LRX, 46.5g StaBALL 6.5, COAL 2.750, Peterson Brass, CCI 200
- 6.5 CM: 135 DRT, 46.5g StaBALL 6.5, COAL 2.700, Peterson Brass, CCI 200
- 223: 77 TMK, 26.5 CFE233, COAL 2.285, Starline Brass, CCI 400
- 223: 79 DRT Factory

Conditions when shooting:
- 5000ft, 50deg, imperceivable wind, clear skies
- Garmin XERO Chrono

Possible causes of crappy groups:
1. My technique sucks
- I shot the 7PRC lefty (I am left eye dominant, but right handed), 6.5 & 223 righty
- Shot the 7 in sets of 3, the 65 in sets of 6, 223 sets of 10. I “felt” the brake after each set to see if it was “hot” and thus maybe giving mirage, the would let it cool if so

2. My setup was not consistent
- I was prone, but body was in a kind of a dip (think Upward Dog yoga pose. Not that pronounced, but not flat)
- Protektor Model front rest with an Owl Ear front bag
- Rear was a Molinator and a 2x4x6 “squeeze bag”
3. Rifle’s do not like the loads
4. Rifles are lemons

Things to do to eliminate causes.
1. Have known good shooter shoot the load
2. Shoot from a cement bench with a “Solid” front rest, and rear rest that is consistent

3. Modify loads.
1. Change projectile
- Based on the Rokslide conversations and the fact I live in California, I am basically set on 127 LRX and 135 DRT
- I have a 124 Hammer Hunter Load that I will see how it groups next week. This has historically been my most accurate load, but not great reviews on the bullet lethality.
2. Change powder
1. What I have that I could try (I have tried some before with similar results) are: Varget, RL16, H4350, IMR 4831, Ramshot Hunter, H4831SC, Superformance, RL22, H1000, Ramshot Magnum, CFE223, StaBALL 6.5, N565
3. Change powder charge
4. Change primer
1. I have Lapua SRP and CCI 400 that I could use in the 6.5CM
2. I have Federal 210M that I could use vice the CCI 200
5. Seating depth
- I need the list of podcasts that talk about how seating depth does not have a material difference on accuracy

4. This statistical chances of number three being an issue, are essentially nonexistent. This would mean, I have two factory, Tikka barrels that are lemons and two aftermarket carbon barrels that are lemons. The chances of all the rifles I have being lemons, are essentially zero. So I can eliminate this from the list.

My Current Plan is to:
1. Stick with what I have, know my limitations based on the group sizes I have

2. Use the 223 and practice the “Rifle Drill” that Form posted a while back and try to mitigate “possible cause #1”

3. I have a new 6.5CM in Lefty, that I will throw a SWFA 10x on and shoot my 140 ELDM (46.0 Ramshot Hunter, Peterson, CCI 200) to see what I get. This will be my rifle I will use at the MDT NRL Hunter event (Skills div). As it gives me the 380K PF I need, it’s that or the DRT load (too $$ for an event) or the 7PRC (I am out of RL26, so will need a new load once I expend the 45 loaded bullets I have)

I think that about covers it. Any input on some practical things that might help are appreciated.

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now that you've been through the S2H class and had some implementation time since, what are your thoughts on this now?

 

[philcox]

now that you've been through the S2H class and had some implementation time since, what are your thoughts on this now?

Here is my post S2H assessment (abbreviated) of "Possible causes of crappy groups"

1. My technique sucks - This is still true, while not as much, I absolutely know "I" am introducing a NON-TRIVIAL amount of error into my groups.

2. My setup was not consistent - This is less of an issue, but plays in to number 1 a bit ...

3. Rifle’s do not like the loads - Still could be true, but I am using loads that others shoot well enough (79 DRT with 23.0 XBR, 77 TMK 23.5 XBR, 135 DRT 43.0 RL16 ...

4. Rifles are lemons - Nope, Chances of 5 Tikka rifles shooting like crap are slim.

Based on the class and current non-lead limits, my Current Plan is to: Stick with what I have. If I know nothing > 500y, then 223. If possible to 600, then 65CM. Anything > 600 ... get closer ...