My Tikka groups suck

[TaperPin]

How is that possible?

Even Brian Litz has theorized the cause - he stops short of saying it’s a real thing, but has said as a bullet comes out it can be flying like a cork screw and as it settles down the diameter of the corkscrew gets smaller. I didn’t know how controversial it would be, but as a young shooter decades ago groups were often better at 200 than 100 - I figured it had more to do with parallax being set at 150 yards, but even with parallax adjustable scopes I still believe it’s a thing.

 

[CoWapiti]

Interesting stuff, definitely agree to have a known skilled shooter get behind your rifles and compare. To make a factory ammo suggestion, my Tikka CTR 6.5 creed seems to love the hornady American gunner 140 gr ammo. I've regularly shot 1.5-2" at 300yds and 5-6" groups at 1050yds with that stuff. I do not consider myself an extremely skilled shooter. As far as reloads with the 6.5, I was having very good results with berger 140vld over 42-43gr H4350. Good luck, hope you get it figured out!

 

[2buffalo]

Even Brian Litz has theorized the cause - he stops short of saying it’s a real thing, but has said as a bullet comes out it can be flying like a cork screw and as it settles down the diameter of the corkscrew gets smaller. I didn’t know how controversial it would be, but as a young shooter decades ago groups were often better at 200 than 100 - I figured it had more to do with parallax being set at 150 yards, but even with parallax adjustable scopes I still believe it’s a thing.

I am pretty sure Brian Litz said that if someone brought him a rifle that shoots better at 200 than 100 he would give them some money and nobody took him up on it.

 

[TuckTruck]

Some of my question have already been covered, but…

Do you have other rifles that you shoot tighter groups with?

Have you tried factory ammo?

Have you verified your recoil lugs are properly installed?

Has anyone else shot these rifles and had better groups?

Have the rifles shot tighter groups in the past?

If I were in your shoes, I would focus on one rifle at a time, preferably not the 7prc because you may fight a flinch due to recoil.

 

[TaperPin]

I am pretty sure Brian Litz said that if someone brought him a rifle that shoots better at 200 than 100 he would give them some money and nobody took him up on it.

Yet he has a theory of what causes it.

 

[Tanner]

It’s pretty clear that there is some shooter error and recoil and/or recoil anticipation happening, based on the .223 groups being so much smaller.

I’d probably bed each of those rifles if they aren’t already, at least capture the lug in the stock tightly and retorque all fasteners to eliminate some mechanical issues.

 

[Dave0317]

How is that possible?

I bet they are shooting 3 or 5 round groups. See it happen once or twice and then just claim that is what the rifle does. With a small sample size you could easily have 3 shots at 100 happen to close to max dispersion, but within the guns “cone” of accuracy, and then the 200 yard group ends up being a small representation of a smaller portion of the cone.

 

[Dave0317]

At the suggestion of [mention]ResearchinStuff [/mention] posting this here

Background
Rifles:
- 7PRC - Tikka 7 Rem Mag action, 20” C6 7PRC barrel, Mesa Precision stock, UM Rings, Maven RS 1.2, 8.5 lb
- 6.5CM - Tikka Superlite, Barrel cut to 21”, OEM stock with vert grip, UM Rings, Maven RS 1.2, 8.2 lb
- 223 - Tikka Lite, Barrel cut to 18”, OEM stock with vert grip, UM Rings, Maven RS 1.2. 8.25 lb

Loads:
- 7 PRC: 168 LRX, 67.5g RL26, COAL 3.20, ADG Brass, CCI 250
- 6.5 CM: 127 LRX, 46.5g StaBALL 6.5, COAL 2.750, Peterson Brass, CCI 200
- 6.5 CM: 135 DRT, 46.5g StaBALL 6.5, COAL 2.700, Peterson Brass, CCI 200
- 223: 77 TMK, 26.5 CFE233, COAL 2.285, Starline Brass, CCI 400
- 223: 79 DRT Factory

Conditions when shooting:
- 5000ft, 50deg, imperceivable wind, clear skies
- Garmin XERO Chrono

Possible causes of crappy groups:
1. My technique sucks
- I shot the 7PRC lefty (I am left eye dominant, but right handed), 6.5 & 223 righty
- Shot the 7 in sets of 3, the 65 in sets of 6, 223 sets of 10. I “felt” the brake after each set to see if it was “hot” and thus maybe giving mirage, the would let it cool if so

2. My setup was not consistent
- I was prone, but body was in a kind of a dip (think Upward Dog yoga pose. Not that pronounced, but not flat)
- Protektor Model front rest with an Owl Ear front bag
- Rear was a Molinator and a 2x4x6 “squeeze bag”
3. Rifle’s do not like the loads
4. Rifles are lemons

Things to do to eliminate causes.
1. Have known good shooter shoot the load
2. Shoot from a cement bench with a “Solid” front rest, and rear rest that is consistent

3. Modify loads.
1. Change projectile
- Based on the Rokslide conversations and the fact I live in California, I am basically set on 127 LRX and 135 DRT
- I have a 124 Hammer Hunter Load that I will see how it groups next week. This has historically been my most accurate load, but not great reviews on the bullet lethality.
2. Change powder
1. What I have that I could try (I have tried some before with similar results) are: Varget, RL16, H4350, IMR 4831, Ramshot Hunter, H4831SC, Superformance, RL22, H1000, Ramshot Magnum, CFE223, StaBALL 6.5, N565
3. Change powder charge
4. Change primer
1. I have Lapua SRP and CCI 400 that I could use in the 6.5CM
2. I have Federal 210M that I could use vice the CCI 200
5. Seating depth
- I need the list of podcasts that talk about how seating depth does not have a material difference on accuracy

4. This statistical chances of number three being an issue, are essentially nonexistent. This would mean, I have two factory, Tikka barrels that are lemons and two aftermarket carbon barrels that are lemons. The chances of all the rifles I have being lemons, are essentially zero. So I can eliminate this from the list.

My Current Plan is to:
1. Stick with what I have, know my limitations based on the group sizes I have

2. Use the 223 and practice the “Rifle Drill” that Form posted a while back and try to mitigate “possible cause #1”

3. I have a new 6.5CM in Lefty, that I will throw a SWFA 10x on and shoot my 140 ELDM (46.0 Ramshot Hunter, Peterson, CCI 200) to see what I get. This will be my rifle I will use at the MDT NRL Hunter event (Skills div). As it gives me the 380K PF I need, it’s that or the DRT load (too $$ for an event) or the 7PRC (I am out of RL26, so will need a new load once I expend the 45 loaded bullets I have)

I think that about covers it. Any input on some practical things that might help are appreciated.

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Lots going on there, but simplest first couple steps would be to start removing variables.

Get a known good ammo, like Fed GMM loaded with SMK.

Shoot a solid position. Doesn’t have to be a bench, in fact I prefer prone with bags for this type of thing. With groups like that I can usually tell I have some reticle movement or unsteadiness of some sort going on. When I shoot sun MOA groups, reticle movement is usually just about imperceptible at the time the shot breaks.

You mentioned doing the rifle drill as practice. Don’t forget step one of that drill is to practice prone until you can consistently get 1.5 MOA ten shot groups from prone. Experimenting with 3 rifles, reloading recipes, right and left hand, multiple bullets, etc isn’t helping. Get consistent and accurate with the .223 and match ammo, then start adding all the other variables, if you need them.

 

[philcox]

In response to [mention]Tuck tuck [/mention] and [mention]ResearchinStuff [/mention] …


Are your oem stocks free floated? No, but there is adequate gaps between barrel and stock. Dollar bills will float freely.

Bedded? No

Action screws torqued tight? Yes, 45 in lb on OEM with plastic OEM trigger guard

For the 6.5 creed, have you tested any factory 140 eld match or 143 precision hunter ammo? I have not. Am going to try the 120 Outfitter tomorrow (because I have some)

For the 223, have you tested any factory ammo using the 77 gr smk? I have not

Has anyone else shot your rifles? No

Have you shot any other rifles more accurately than you shoot these? Not really, possibly, but not something that stood out.

Seems like you love ball powders I actually don’t care, just trying to get something that works AND is available. I used StaBALL because it seemed to get solid reviews for use in 65. I am more than happy to go a diff direction, but given my level of expertise (or lack there of). It seemed like powders were like calibers Varget/H4350/RL16 … everyone had a reason to use one over the other.


Have you verified your recoil lugs are properly installed? OEM, and they look all the same. I have 3 factory stocks to compare.

Have the rifles shot tighter groups in the past? I never shot large group numbers until after I cut the barrels, so not really sure.

=============
So, gonna head to range (concrete benches) and shoot the following:

1. 10 rounds of Hornady Outfitter 120 GMX out of the 65
2. 10 rounds of my hand load Hammer Hunters (those have been consistently best groups out of that rifle), I just am not happy with the terminal performance of the HH, hence the DRT or LRX

Hoping that will give me an idea on the rifle.

For the 7PRC, I’m going to try 10 factory 180 ELDM, and 10 Factory 160 LRX and see what I get from them. Then step back and re-evaluate the big picture to see if I can identify any paths forward.

I appreciate all the help, and am trying to take it all in and do what I can.


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[Yukon Cornelius]

Well, I’ll say it’s shooter error since tikka’s are perfect.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

My only real contribution, is have you considered just focusing on one hun first?

 

[philcox]

My only real contribution, is have you considered just focusing on one hun first?

You are second to recommend this. I am impatient and feel like I am wasting time in between barrel cooling, so swap. With that said, it’s good advice. And I am going to go with it. I’ll focus on the 65.


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[General RE LEE]

My only real contribution, is have you considered just focusing on one hun first?

We shooting Germans in WWII? Lol sorry some will get it.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Dollar bill is not enough gap, you can probably still get intermittent barrel contact, which will change poi. 45 in lbs can also still sometimes allow movement. Imo, you can't isolate variables any further until those known weak points are addressed. While you're at it, get the recoil pins back in your um rings.

If you're scared of messing the stocks ip, this thread will cure that:

How I Modify My Tikka Factory Stocks

This is the start to finish process I use on my tikka factory stocks to help them have a consistent POI and improve shootability. None of this is completely new information, but there are a few unique things I do, and this is a consolidation post. This is stuff that I'm capable of doing to my...

rokslide.com

While you do the stock work, get some quality ammo for one of the 2 smaller guns. And work on finding someone else shoot who can them too.

 

[Dave0317]

You are second to recommend this. I am impatient and feel like I am wasting time in between barrel cooling, so swap. With that said, it’s good advice. And I am going to go with it. I’ll focus on the 65.


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.223 probably produces least heat.
Definitely is the #1 recommended training/practice round here.
Tikka barrels, according to people more knowledgeable than I, are properly stress relived, so you should see zero poi shift from heat once you are actually evaluating something like a 30 round accuracy cone.

“Saving time” by figuring out all three guns, different hand loads, plus yourself as a huge variable, is a false economy. How do you evaluate the accuracy of a given recipe if you can’t tell if it’s you, the gun, or the ammo, resulting in a large group?

You would be using your time much more efficiently to do the work to ensure you as a shooter are efficient/accurate/consistent , and the .223 and a pile of factory match ammo is the easiest way to do that.

Imagine how time efficient your load development will be once you KNOW you are consistently a sub-MOA shooter. No more guessing if you pulled a shot or if it’s your ammo.

If you just enjoy loading and tinkering, nothing wrong with that. If you truly want those guns, and yourself to maximize potential and be hunt ready, put the work in with the .223 and the guidelines in this post:

Equipment versus practice posts and Rifle practice/shooting

This isn’t in response to anyone I particular, but there is an up tick in the amount of “I want a XXXX distance hunting rifle” traffic the last few months. I am getting a lot of questions relating to this, which I do not mind helping, but thought a public post might help answer some questions...

rokslide.com

 

[JGRaider]

Use different bullets, and especially focus on a 139 Scenar load in the 6.5.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Have you verified your recoil lugs are properly installed? OEM, and they look all the same. I have 3 factory stocks to compare.

Something Tikkas can be finicky with, when you're assembling are you actually seating the recoil slot against the lug? I always drop the action in and make sure the lug is in the slot, push the action back so the surfaces are touching, snug up the action screws finger tight, then drop it on the butt a couple times on the floor before torquing.

Also agree with others that removing the contact points, opening up the barrel channel, and more torque on the action screws (I do 55in/lb) won't hurt.

 

[philcox]

Dollar bill is not enough gap, you can probably still get intermittent barrel contact, which will change poi. 45 in lbs can also still sometimes allow movement. Imo, you can't isolate variables any further until those known weak points are addressed. While you're at it, get the recoil pins back in your um rings.

If you're scared of messing the stocks ip, this thread will cure that:

How I Modify My Tikka Factory Stocks

This is the start to finish process I use on my tikka factory stocks to help them have a consistent POI and improve shootability. None of this is completely new information, but there are a few unique things I do, and this is a consolidation post. This is stuff that I'm capable of doing to my...

rokslide.com

While you do the stock work, get some quality ammo for one of the 2 smaller guns. And work on finding someone else shoot who can them too.

I'll do what I can to get more "space", and I am hesitant to tighten more and potentially break something. I just got some 140 ELDM factory to try with it. I hear you on the pins, and will see if I can get it (hesitation is the convo with UM that they were unnecessary on the lower recoil rifles with proper torque).

I will update this thread after my 10 round group with the 140 ELDM Factory ammo tomorrow. I'll get a bigger float on the stock OR I'll throw the 6.5 in the Mesa Stock (inlet for the C6 Featherlite contour) and there is probably 1/4" around the barrel on that.

 

[philcox]

You would be using your time much more efficiently to do the work to ensure you as a shooter are efficient/accurate/consistent , and the .223 and a pile of factory match ammo is the easiest way to do that.

Is the 73 ELDM Hornady Factory "good enough"? Is there anything that is "good enough" but not quite as $$

 

[philcox]

Wondering if the 2827 fps with the 26.5 CFE223 is a bit hot for an 18" barrel and causing SOME of this issues. Anyone else pushing the 77 TMK at that speed out of that barrel length?

I am already convinced that I am the largest factor in the group size. I will be working on that over the next number of months. But trying to eliminate some of the other possible variables.