My Tikka groups suck

[TaperPin]

How is that possible?

Even Brian Litz has theorized the cause - he stops short of saying it’s a real thing, but has said as a bullet comes out it can be flying like a cork screw and as it settles down the diameter of the corkscrew gets smaller. I didn’t know how controversial it would be, but as a young shooter decades ago groups were often better at 200 than 100 - I figured it had more to do with parallax being set at 150 yards, but even with parallax adjustable scopes I still believe it’s a thing.

 

[CoWapiti]

Interesting stuff, definitely agree to have a known skilled shooter get behind your rifles and compare. To make a factory ammo suggestion, my Tikka CTR 6.5 creed seems to love the hornady American gunner 140 gr ammo. I've regularly shot 1.5-2" at 300yds and 5-6" groups at 1050yds with that stuff. I do not consider myself an extremely skilled shooter. As far as reloads with the 6.5, I was having very good results with berger 140vld over 42-43gr H4350. Good luck, hope you get it figured out!

 

[2buffalo]

Even Brian Litz has theorized the cause - he stops short of saying it’s a real thing, but has said as a bullet comes out it can be flying like a cork screw and as it settles down the diameter of the corkscrew gets smaller. I didn’t know how controversial it would be, but as a young shooter decades ago groups were often better at 200 than 100 - I figured it had more to do with parallax being set at 150 yards, but even with parallax adjustable scopes I still believe it’s a thing.

I am pretty sure Brian Litz said that if someone brought him a rifle that shoots better at 200 than 100 he would give them some money and nobody took him up on it.

 

[TuckTruck]

Some of my question have already been covered, but…

Do you have other rifles that you shoot tighter groups with?

Have you tried factory ammo?

Have you verified your recoil lugs are properly installed?

Has anyone else shot these rifles and had better groups?

Have the rifles shot tighter groups in the past?

If I were in your shoes, I would focus on one rifle at a time, preferably not the 7prc because you may fight a flinch due to recoil.

 

[TaperPin]

I am pretty sure Brian Litz said that if someone brought him a rifle that shoots better at 200 than 100 he would give them some money and nobody took him up on it.

Yet he has a theory of what causes it.

 

[Tanner]

It’s pretty clear that there is some shooter error and recoil and/or recoil anticipation happening, based on the .223 groups being so much smaller.

I’d probably bed each of those rifles if they aren’t already, at least capture the lug in the stock tightly and retorque all fasteners to eliminate some mechanical issues.

 

[Dave0317]

How is that possible?

I bet they are shooting 3 or 5 round groups. See it happen once or twice and then just claim that is what the rifle does. With a small sample size you could easily have 3 shots at 100 happen to close to max dispersion, but within the guns “cone” of accuracy, and then the 200 yard group ends up being a small representation of a smaller portion of the cone.

 

[Dave0317]

At the suggestion of [mention]ResearchinStuff [/mention] posting this here

Background
Rifles:
- 7PRC - Tikka 7 Rem Mag action, 20” C6 7PRC barrel, Mesa Precision stock, UM Rings, Maven RS 1.2, 8.5 lb
- 6.5CM - Tikka Superlite, Barrel cut to 21”, OEM stock with vert grip, UM Rings, Maven RS 1.2, 8.2 lb
- 223 - Tikka Lite, Barrel cut to 18”, OEM stock with vert grip, UM Rings, Maven RS 1.2. 8.25 lb

Loads:
- 7 PRC: 168 LRX, 67.5g RL26, COAL 3.20, ADG Brass, CCI 250
- 6.5 CM: 127 LRX, 46.5g StaBALL 6.5, COAL 2.750, Peterson Brass, CCI 200
- 6.5 CM: 135 DRT, 46.5g StaBALL 6.5, COAL 2.700, Peterson Brass, CCI 200
- 223: 77 TMK, 26.5 CFE233, COAL 2.285, Starline Brass, CCI 400
- 223: 79 DRT Factory

Conditions when shooting:
- 5000ft, 50deg, imperceivable wind, clear skies
- Garmin XERO Chrono

Possible causes of crappy groups:
1. My technique sucks
- I shot the 7PRC lefty (I am left eye dominant, but right handed), 6.5 & 223 righty
- Shot the 7 in sets of 3, the 65 in sets of 6, 223 sets of 10. I “felt” the brake after each set to see if it was “hot” and thus maybe giving mirage, the would let it cool if so

2. My setup was not consistent
- I was prone, but body was in a kind of a dip (think Upward Dog yoga pose. Not that pronounced, but not flat)
- Protektor Model front rest with an Owl Ear front bag
- Rear was a Molinator and a 2x4x6 “squeeze bag”
3. Rifle’s do not like the loads
4. Rifles are lemons

Things to do to eliminate causes.
1. Have known good shooter shoot the load
2. Shoot from a cement bench with a “Solid” front rest, and rear rest that is consistent

3. Modify loads.
1. Change projectile
- Based on the Rokslide conversations and the fact I live in California, I am basically set on 127 LRX and 135 DRT
- I have a 124 Hammer Hunter Load that I will see how it groups next week. This has historically been my most accurate load, but not great reviews on the bullet lethality.
2. Change powder
1. What I have that I could try (I have tried some before with similar results) are: Varget, RL16, H4350, IMR 4831, Ramshot Hunter, H4831SC, Superformance, RL22, H1000, Ramshot Magnum, CFE223, StaBALL 6.5, N565
3. Change powder charge
4. Change primer
1. I have Lapua SRP and CCI 400 that I could use in the 6.5CM
2. I have Federal 210M that I could use vice the CCI 200
5. Seating depth
- I need the list of podcasts that talk about how seating depth does not have a material difference on accuracy

4. This statistical chances of number three being an issue, are essentially nonexistent. This would mean, I have two factory, Tikka barrels that are lemons and two aftermarket carbon barrels that are lemons. The chances of all the rifles I have being lemons, are essentially zero. So I can eliminate this from the list.

My Current Plan is to:
1. Stick with what I have, know my limitations based on the group sizes I have

2. Use the 223 and practice the “Rifle Drill” that Form posted a while back and try to mitigate “possible cause #1”

3. I have a new 6.5CM in Lefty, that I will throw a SWFA 10x on and shoot my 140 ELDM (46.0 Ramshot Hunter, Peterson, CCI 200) to see what I get. This will be my rifle I will use at the MDT NRL Hunter event (Skills div). As it gives me the 380K PF I need, it’s that or the DRT load (too $$ for an event) or the 7PRC (I am out of RL26, so will need a new load once I expend the 45 loaded bullets I have)

I think that about covers it. Any input on some practical things that might help are appreciated.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lots going on there, but simplest first couple steps would be to start removing variables.

Get a known good ammo, like Fed GMM loaded with SMK.

Shoot a solid position. Doesn’t have to be a bench, in fact I prefer prone with bags for this type of thing. With groups like that I can usually tell I have some reticle movement or unsteadiness of some sort going on. When I shoot sun MOA groups, reticle movement is usually just about imperceptible at the time the shot breaks.

You mentioned doing the rifle drill as practice. Don’t forget step one of that drill is to practice prone until you can consistently get 1.5 MOA ten shot groups from prone. Experimenting with 3 rifles, reloading recipes, right and left hand, multiple bullets, etc isn’t helping. Get consistent and accurate with the .223 and match ammo, then start adding all the other variables, if you need them.