My side of the BlackOvis/Camofire story - Podcast and Q&A

[TheTone]

Honestly that MF response is truly disappointing. He cheated multiple times but hey because he has passion, we had other supplier issues and he moves product, oh well…. His crying act at his Utah license revocation hearing was puke endorsing. The world needs ditch diggers more than it needs people like him peddling Chinese merch and hunting videos

 

[The hoodoos]

The support for MF is why I never bought anything from BO and judging by the response I am glad I didn’t.

 

[wapitibob]

Honestly that MF response is truly disappointing. He cheated multiple times but hey because he has passion, we had other supplier issues and he moves product, oh well…. His crying act at his Utah license revocation hearing was puke endorsing. The world needs ditch diggers more than it needs people like him peddling Chinese merch and hunting videos

I have no issue with a guy screwing up, paying his dues, and getting another shot but MF has no remorse and why should he, vendors eat up his bs, then buy more merch.

 

[Invisiblecreek]

San Juan gloves - high demand. I'm half motivated to start a new brand selling 4 or 5 pieces of gear, and San Juan gloves would be top of the list! There are about 1400 of them left in the inventory, and none of those have been sold yet to anyone. I for one am watching to find out where these end up to buy some. The factory that built them for BlackOvis has a shipment that arrived in November which they tried to unload to Midway USA or somewhere like that. To my knowledge, they haven't sold them either.

Speaking of factory, the down Glomits (Palisades Glassing Mitten/Glomits) were sold out and the refill shipment was on the water. They too are yet to be sold somewhere. If I catch wind of where, I'll pass it along.

Perfectly fine to ask. I think I covered this in the 4th episode, but after the bankruptcy filing the PE firm let me know that since the lease had never been transferred to the new entity from the former entity that my co-founder and I had set up the lease under, we were the proud owners of the lease on a 50,000 sq ft building, for another 16 months. (I should have known better and taken care of that vs assume that it would have been taken care of - school of hard knocks) I worked with the court to consolidate all the inventory, leased a small 4000 sq ft space and had the inventory moved there so I could lease the building to a new tenant.

Most of the inventory is still in that holding facility awaiting the liquidation sale.

Any info on the liquidation sale? Will it be a package sale of all the inventory or would you be able to buy certain specific things like normal?
An update on the sale would be awesome!

I was a consistent buyer on cf/bo and loved
all the Bo clothes especially the merino !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ktowncamo]

Could you have kept CF/BO small and humble?

Seems like a fast paced industry that doesn’t allow for that mentality if you want to be successful at or have any longevity.

Very interesting question, and one I know that I contemplated at 2 very certain points over the time of growing the business. Men are builders, growers by nature. When we get into a business situation, it takes real maturity and self examination to set and stick to a high water mark before getting too deep into the thick of it when it comes to building a business. So when considering a small or big business, most men will think a bigger business is better unless a high level of maturity exists to reign in growth for higher priorities. (family, life balance, etc)

As for humble, we always tried to stay that way, but small wasn't part of the recipe, until we were big and then small started to seem more simple and satisfying in a lot of ways. Grass is greener dreaming perhaps?

It kind of comes back to the "why grow" which I spoke about in the podcast. Once I replaced my prior income with building CF/BO, I didn't really reset my "why" and found myself engulfed in the grind of growth. By that time, an offramp to small and humble would have seemed like "giving up" vs something better. Kinda sad actually. I hope that makes sense.

I recall a time when I was thinking about being small again, as the growth started to feel like it was running faster than I was able to or wanted to keep up with. This was somewhere around 2018. My original Co-Founder and I had been growing Camofire/BlackOvis as fast as we could, fighting and grinding, but there came a point for me around 2018 when I had the real thought of "when is enough, enough?" Mind you we were growing Crispi at that point in time as well, 2 years into that adventure. This thought of "when is enough, enough" was not only as it pertained to my own business exploits, but introspectively about general life pursuits of "more is better" and also on a broader society level as I looked around. Even if I wanted to slow down, I wasn't courageous enough to confront my business partner because he was very much of the growth at all costs mindset. I suppose I just shrugged and strapped in for the ride.

Once Private Equity is part of any business equation, small and humble is not any part of any equation, and it is growth at all costs.

After the bankruptcy, I had a friend suggest that I buy CF/BO out of bankruptcy and re-start it but with a small team, smaller goals, and enjoy the ride vs trying to conquer the world. I have to admit, that idea of CF/BO as a small and humble operation has its appeal, but if CF/BO does rise from the ashes, I doubt I have the stomach to be a part of it. Unlike Lot's wife, I don't think I will be looking back longingly for what is behind me.

Sorry for the book. You got me into some deep thought on the topic.

 

[ktowncamo]

I have no issue with a guy screwing up, paying his dues, and getting another shot but MF has no remorse and why should he, vendors eat up his bs, then buy more merch.

Hard to disagree with you on this. I hope I came across not as defending MF or defending the decision we made. I was trying to cite the reason at the time that we continued to offer MF product.

Honestly that MF response is truly disappointing. He cheated multiple times but hey because he has passion, we had other supplier issues and he moves product, oh well…. His crying act at his Utah license revocation hearing was puke endorsing. The world needs ditch diggers more than it needs people like him peddling Chinese merch and hunting videos

The support for MF is why I never bought anything from BO and judging by the response I am glad I didn’t.

Both posts and the likes are enlightening for sure. Did this lead to BO declining in sales? Perhaps in some ways. Numbers we tracked showed new customer acquisition was still quite strong up until the end. That said, replacing lost customers comes at a much higher cost, one we likely overlooked. Lesson learned.

 

[dirtshooter]

Hoping for that liquidation sale. Need a bunch more merino and puffy pants haha

 

[tony]

Kendall, those underwire that guy was peddling
Dude

 

[HairyScandinavian]

Both posts and the likes are enlightening for sure. Did this lead to BO declining in sales? Perhaps in some ways. Numbers we tracked showed new customer acquisition was still quite strong up until the end. That said, replacing lost customers comes at a much higher cost, one we likely overlooked. Lesson learned.

Whether it was enough to matter or not, it absolutely did cost some sales. I for one used to order a decent amount of stuff being a gear whore and the only thing I ever bought after the MF thing was Peak meals on sale. I have a pretty big list of charges on my CCs from Camofire as well prior to the MF stuff and completely quit visiting the site afterwards. There's enough online vendors out there to choose from that a couple clicks elsewhere isn't difficult enough to challenge me purchasing elsewhere.

 

[Turkeygetpwnd38]

Whether it was enough to matter or not, it absolutely did cost some sales. I for one used to order a decent amount of stuff being a gear whore and the only thing I ever bought after the MF thing was Peak meals on sale. I have a pretty big list of charges on my CCs from Camofire as well prior to the MF stuff and completely quit visiting the site afterwards. There's enough online vendors out there to choose from that a couple clicks elsewhere isn't difficult enough to challenge me purchasing elsewhere.

Same here, I went from likely spending a few thousand a year there to nothing. It seems like everyone that defends him has the exact same story, doesn't make sense though I have a few educated guesses as to why. I'd think guys like him with less baggage are a dime a dozen, just log on YouTube or Instagram.

Thanks for the response Kendall.

 

[CRJR45]

Hard to disagree with you on this. I hope I came across not as defending MF or defending the decision we made. I was trying to cite the reason at the time that we continued to offer MF product.



Both posts and the likes are enlightening for sure. Did this lead to BO declining in sales? Perhaps in some ways. Numbers we tracked showed new customer acquisition was still quite strong up until the end. That said, replacing lost customers comes at a much higher cost, one we likely overlooked. Lesson learned.

This is what I have a problem with , it seems you lost your base by staying with MF , but still try to defend it .
As a business owner you had to see the optics of staying with him , you basically chose sales over ethics , IMO .
I know it's your choice and I wonder if there's even more to your story we won't hear , but it was a end to my doing business with BO ever again .
I wonder why you seem to down play the choice and if you really understand why you went belly up .
Still , no big deal , live and learn , move on , make better choices in the future . Oh , and listen when your customers try to tell you something .

 

[dieselchessy]

Both posts and the likes are enlightening for sure. Did this lead to BO declining in sales? Perhaps in some ways. Numbers we tracked showed new customer acquisition was still quite strong up until the end. That said, replacing lost customers comes at a much higher cost, one we likely overlooked. Lesson learned.

Im middle age, blonde hair, blue eyes, married, 1.5 kids, upper middle class with a mortgage. As average as average gets.
I stopped shopping your store because of how you handled the MF deal. To this day my 20 year old and his friends bad mouth MF. Just recently they were trash talking some outfit and MF due to some vendor situation at the Sportsmans show.
Its been years since Ive heard anyone say anything even remotely positive about MF other than your earlier post.
If a guy like me sees a situation a given way, odds are good Im not the only one.

I think its safe to say you lost customers and potential new customers with your handling of the MF situation.
Maybe the sales he brought in outweighed the losses. I have no idea. Ive assumed that must of been the case.

I laugh thinking about how I used to buy your $65 game bag sets but then switched to the Argali version. That product must have an amazing mark up.

 

[Dos Perros]

Thanks for putting this out there, I was super curious as I really liked BO gear and I could afford it.

I find it funny people are bashing when they will turn around and buy Kuiu to help support a rich guy trying to limit out access to public land.

Welcome New Guy. I haven't bought any Kuiu since that deal either, which I think is still pretty fresh. I don't think anyone is picking on BO. It's also pretty easy to see how great hunting companies can change for the worse after changes in management, ownership. Thankfully capitalism has always produced worthy competition to replace the fat tired dogs, and we get to decide every time we buy something who deserves our business. There is no unconditional love here.

 

[Dos Perros]

Certainly disagree with the 'business decision' to keep MF on. Businesses are more than cash flows and balance sheets; they are brands backed up by values and people. I do appreciate the candid response though and the humility to admit you may have been wrong--but also maybe not--it appears you made your decision with evidence but also emotion.

For what it's worth every time I had to deal with Black Ovis employees I was treated well and with respect, and a time or two I thought they did something to my benefit that perhaps they didn't have to, but good companies do. I feel really badly for the good people that lost their jobs over this.

 

[MallardSX2]

Keeping MF on was a TERRIBLE business decision. I know a lot of people who stopped buying from your business because of it.

A LOT of people really hate that particular crying Ginger.

 

[TheTone]

I won’t even consider a Goat knife after it came out that he was a partner or whatever in the business and was in charge of all the order fulfillment that wasn’t happening

I wonder in the BO case if the people that stopped buying due to MF were in a significantly different demographic than those buying MF stuff. I’ve never seen a person locally over the age of 30 with any MF gear; it’s basically people between 16-25 that are trying to fit the flat bill, “redneck” look.

 

[CRJR45]

Just to clarify what I meant in my earlier post , I didn't mean to imply the choice to stay with MF was the reason BO went under .
But much like watching a friend go thru a divorce trying to explain why the marriage failed , but it's clear to you that he/her /they /them doesn't really get it , I wonder if your explanations is a true synopsis of how it went down .
You still say your choice to stay with MF was defendable , when obviously it wasn't , what other decisions are you not looking at objectively?
And I only say this as my observations from an outsider looking in , if I'm off base I apologize , but understanding how you failed is the first step , most successful entrepreneurs fail several times before they make it , so get this behind you , make it big and remember my great advice when you're rich and famous , again , LOL

 

[CorbLand]

Very interesting question, and one I know that I contemplated at 2 very certain points over the time of growing the business. Men are builders, growers by nature. When we get into a business situation, it takes real maturity and self examination to set and stick to a high water mark before getting too deep into the thick of it when it comes to building a business. So when considering a small or big business, most men will think a bigger business is better unless a high level of maturity exists to reign in growth for higher priorities. (family, life balance, etc)

As for humble, we always tried to stay that way, but small wasn't part of the recipe, until we were big and then small started to seem more simple and satisfying in a lot of ways. Grass is greener dreaming perhaps?

It kind of comes back to the "why grow" which I spoke about in the podcast. Once I replaced my prior income with building CF/BO, I didn't really reset my "why" and found myself engulfed in the grind of growth. By that time, an offramp to small and humble would have seemed like "giving up" vs something better. Kinda sad actually. I hope that makes sense.

I recall a time when I was thinking about being small again, as the growth started to feel like it was running faster than I was able to or wanted to keep up with. This was somewhere around 2018. My original Co-Founder and I had been growing Camofire/BlackOvis as fast as we could, fighting and grinding, but there came a point for me around 2018 when I had the real thought of "when is enough, enough?" Mind you we were growing Crispi at that point in time as well, 2 years into that adventure. This thought of "when is enough, enough" was not only as it pertained to my own business exploits, but introspectively about general life pursuits of "more is better" and also on a broader society level as I looked around. Even if I wanted to slow down, I wasn't courageous enough to confront my business partner because he was very much of the growth at all costs mindset. I suppose I just shrugged and strapped in for the ride.

Once Private Equity is part of any business equation, small and humble is not any part of any equation, and it is growth at all costs.

After the bankruptcy, I had a friend suggest that I buy CF/BO out of bankruptcy and re-start it but with a small team, smaller goals, and enjoy the ride vs trying to conquer the world. I have to admit, that idea of CF/BO as a small and humble operation has its appeal, but if CF/BO does rise from the ashes, I doubt I have the stomach to be a part of it. Unlike Lot's wife, I don't think I will be looking back longingly for what is behind me.

Sorry for the book. You got me into some deep thought on the topic.

Nothing to apologize for. Like I said earlier, I find business models fascinating. Its always interesting to hear from people when the model they choose worked and when it failed.

There are some industries that seem to be more conducive to "small and humble" and I wouldn't think that an internet shop, especially primarily clothing, would be one that you could make work under that model but I could be very, very wrong. This is fully from an outside perspective. I am not willing to put in the work or take the risk of starting my own business. I was just curious to hear from someone that would know.

Partnerships are hard. One phrase I have heard from a lot of business owners that I know is that "Partnerships work great until your making money or losing money." I know of a few people that have had to split up businesses or sell out over partnerships. Not necessarily because they didn't get along or lost their friendships but because aligning two different mentalities can be difficult.


I will add that I am also one that stopped buying from you all over the MF deal. I didn't buy a ton as I worked for a company that provided a good discount so I never looked elsewhere but after I quit, I bought a few things.

From a pure finance perspective, I can see why you would make that decision. If I was in the same shoes as you, I don't know that I would have not made the same one. In a perfect world, I would have loved to see you say "I don't care how much money you make me, what you did is wrong and I don't deal with people like that" but when you have a business to fund, employees to take care of and a family to support, I get the decision that was made.

I am a finance dude for a living. I fully understand the mindset of having to remove emotions from your money. It is far easier to point fingers and say "I would have done this" but many people say that will never have to actually do it at the levels others do. Its pretty easy for me to spend an extra 10-15 bucks not supporting something but harder when that number starts getting 5 and 6 zeros behind it.

Wish you would have made a different decision on that one and I respect the owners that made the decision I feel like should have been made but I get the decision you made.

I met some of your employees helping with a service project up here in true Northern Utah. A couple younger kids, one was getting married soon. I do hope they all landed on their feet after all of this.


I will refrain from asking questions until I can listen to the podcasts so you don't have to repeat yourself.

 

[Bachto]

Just to clarify what I meant in my earlier post , I didn't mean to imply the choice to stay with MF was the reason BO went under .

I mean...it couldn't have helped. There are something like 60k ish members on this platform. If 10,000 stopped or greatly reduced our sales with BO/CF...it adds up really quick.

 

[Bannedinshortorder!]

"A LOT of people really hate that particular crying Ginger."
Never trust a redhead.