Must read; The Land: How Cowboys, Capitalism, and Corruption are Ruining the American West

[Scooter90254]

Its hard to trust anything the author says when so much of what he writes is slanted. Have to assume he's just full of BS. When someone is that woke you have to assume everything that comes out of their mouth is a lie.

 

[Marble]

Damn! I didn't realize I ruined the west just being born in CA...what have I done??????

Dont you know your the scum of the earth? You should be embarrassed to exist. Every CA resident is a dope smoking liberal communist, looking for a free hand out and a volunteer group to save the world....

There is no such thing as a Californian that grows up and lives in a super conservative ranching community that loves guns, God and country more than life itself.

You should be ashamed of yourself!

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[Broomd]

'Anti-capitalist' by definition implies socialist or communist. Nuance? I don't think so.

Won't give Ketcham a second of my time beyond my comment here.

 

[slick]

This dude basically posted the same thing on GoHunt in what appears to be opposition of SJR3 in Nevada.

How anyone can defend feral horses on the landscape is beyond me.

Book probably makes good kindling.


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[Billinsd]

This crap about blaming Californians or San Franciscans for the woes of Idaho, Montana etc is absurd. Those people are the ones who aren’t natives from here, “carpet baggers” as we refer to them in The City.

I mostly agree with you, however our governor and other liberals were born here. It's mostly the people who moved here from the East Coast that have ruined it here, like they are doing to Texas. The Newsoms, Browns, and Getty Oligarchs are a HUGE reason for Californias decline. I grew up 15 miles from Disneyland in the hills and also Newport Beach in the 60s and 70s. They were fantastic places to grow up at the time!!!

 

[Billinsd]

How anyone can defend feral horses on the landscape is beyond me.

Book probably makes good kindling.

Anyone that defends feral horses shouldn't be listened to about anything related to conservation. The book probably would be weak kindling at best.

 

[mauserfan]

I am a MInnesotan and am furtunate to have a number Montanans as close friends. They are Farmers, Ranchers, Teachers, Nurses, A Grain Elevetor Manager and an Attorney. I have known all of them for over 35 years. What they all have in common is that they are all friends and they grew up east of Billings. THey have always said that Eastern MT should be part of the Dakotas....the Governmental decisions are always made to benefit the populus in the western part of the state . You only need to look at Big Sky to see the influx of extreme wealth and their ideas. And yes, up north through Kalispell and Whitefish as well.
Darrel Wick

 

[Huntin_GI]

This dude basically posted the same thing on GoHunt in what appears to be opposition of SJR3 in Nevada.

How anyone can defend feral horses on the landscape is beyond me.

Book probably makes good kindling.

Hi, I'm this dude. I invite anyone here to read or listen to the book. It's points are valid regardless of where the author hails from.

It seems our binary red, blue, right, wrong, 0's, 1's, attitudes has forced us into an echo chamber where the only good ideas are the ideas come from those we agree with. I would contend a well rounded perspective includes examining and maybe even considering the validity of ideas that at first glance I may not even agree with.

Now, back to my original point. The book deserves time and consideration.

The author makes solid points regarding public land grazing, the land transfer crowd, the lack of enforcement by the BLM, and environmental considerations that anyone who is interested in the habitat, should take seriously.


Here's the real kicker, I'm a conservative. But I'm also not so insentient on being correct that I can't take the time to consider others idea that at first glance, I may not agree with.

Now, if you want go burn all the books you don't agree with, be my guest.

 

[sf jakey]

I do t think anyone is talking about burning books.

 

[11boo]

Yeah, I won’t be buying any of his books.

 

[HighUintas]

Hi, I'm this dude. I invite anyone here to read or listen to the book. It's points are valid regardless of where the author hails from.

It seems our binary red, blue, right, wrong, 0's, 1's, attitudes has forced us into an echo chamber where the only good ideas are the ideas come from those we agree with. I would contend a well rounded perspective includes examining and maybe even considering the validity of ideas that at first glance I may not even agree with.

Now, back to my original point. The book deserves time and consideration.

The author makes solid points regarding public land grazing, the land transfer crowd, the lack of enforcement by the BLM, and environmental considerations that anyone who is interested in the habitat, should take seriously.


Here's the real kicker, I'm a conservative. But I'm also not so insentient on being correct that I can't take the time to consider others idea that at first glance, I may not agree with.

Now, if you want go burn all the books you don't agree with, be my guest.

I agree it's worth reading or listening to. I'm a few hours in at this point.

While I don't think I agree with his overall ideology on the natural world (from what I can gather of his thoughts so far) he has some good points on the failures of the BLM and how the ranching industry can be so detrimental to the environment.

He writes pretty enjoyable prose and it is certainly entertaining and thought provoking. But, so much of his writing is tilted toward pissy environmentalist rant that lacks evidence to back up strong statements he makes, it's hard to take some of the information as truth.

I'm looking forward to getting to the end to see if I can figure out where his head really is.

 

[Billinsd]

THey have always said that Eastern MT should be part of the Dakotas....the Governmental decisions are always made to benefit the populus in the western part of the state .

Seems like Eastern Montana and Western North Dakota are similar land wise and people are predominantly German Catholic. Eastern North Dakota is probably more similar to Western Minnesota with more Lutheran Scandinavians.

 

[Billinsd]

Here's the real kicker, I'm a conservative. But I'm also not so insentient on being correct that I can't take the time to consider others idea that at first glance, I may not agree with.

Now, if you want go burn all the books you don't agree with, be my guest.

You got a great point that I totally agree with. However, there are limits. If someone is so far out there, it's not worth my time. I've listened to many here on this site that I've disagreed with and they've changed my mind. Carry on..

 

[Gobbler36]

I agree it's worth reading or listening to. I'm a few hours in at this point.

While I don't think I agree with his overall ideology on the natural world (from what I can gather of his thoughts so far) he has some good points on the failures of the BLM and how the ranching industry can be so detrimental to the environment.

He writes pretty enjoyable prose and it is certainly entertaining and thought provoking. But, so much of his writing is tilted toward pissy environmentalist rant that lacks evidence to back up strong statements he makes, it's hard to take some of the information as truth.

I'm looking forward to getting to the end to see if I can figure out where his head really is.

Don’t tell this to the ranchers place that I hunt, I’ve never seen so much wildlife in any wilderness area, from birds to elk to bears and turkey, but you’re right that ranching sure is hard on em, btw this place has been a ranch for 20+ years

 

[Jimbob]

Lost me right from the start with the anti capitalism. If you think capitalism is bad for the environment you should check out the environmental damage left by communism. Those shining beacons on the hill like the former USSR and modern China.

I haven't read the book but is the author a proponent of communism? If not then your argument doesn't hold much water. Just because A is worse than B does not make B good.

Is capitalism "hard" on the environment? When answering that question the word communism should never come up.

Now if you ask what system is better for the environment then ya sure compare capitalism and communism.

Many things are bad for the environment, we don't just get to claim they are good for the environment because an alternative might be worse.

 

[HighUintas]

Don’t tell this to the ranchers place that I hunt, I’ve never seen so much wildlife in any wilderness area, from birds to elk to bears and turkey, but you’re right that ranching sure is hard on em, btw this place has been a ranch for 20+ years

"Can be" is what I said. I didn't say "always" and I didn't condemn ranching. But it sure does F up the area I hunt in pretty darn well.

 

[slick]

Hi, I'm this dude. I invite anyone here to read or listen to the book. It's points are valid regardless of where the author hails from.

It seems our binary red, blue, right, wrong, 0's, 1's, attitudes has forced us into an echo chamber where the only good ideas are the ideas come from those we agree with. I would contend a well rounded perspective includes examining and maybe even considering the validity of ideas that at first glance I may not even agree with.

Now, back to my original point. The book deserves time and consideration.

The author makes solid points regarding public land grazing, the land transfer crowd, the lack of enforcement by the BLM, and environmental considerations that anyone who is interested in the habitat, should take seriously.


Here's the real kicker, I'm a conservative. But I'm also not so insentient on being correct that I can't take the time to consider others idea that at first glance, I may not agree with.

Now, if you want go burn all the books you don't agree with, be my guest.

I’m not opposed to differing views, and I can agree with most of what you’re conveying as far as keeping an open mind, educating oneself, and so forth.

Most federal agencies are a joke. The only ones that I feel strongly in favor of are some USGS research bios and individual FWS folks, but as far as land management the BLM and FS don’t do a great job.

I also can’t get behind using the book to defend feral horses and demonize the ranching industry. Ranchers are just like any other subset of individuals- some good and some bad. The good ones typically fall in the shadows of the worst eggs.
The 2.1m cattle (your number not mine) that aren’t ran on public ground year round, but 95,000 horses (https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/about-the-program/program-data) that have near zero management, graze in a manner that is more harmful to sensitive Great Basin vegetation communities and prevent native wildlife from accessing water holes during extreme droughts are better than local residents making a living off the land where *shocker* some intermittent grazing is actually beneficial?

Again, there’s only an economic negative to the entirety of feral horses roaming our landscape, not necessarily the case of ranching.

But the “good” ranchers (aka most winter range is private land) provide more for wildlife than any of us do. So it’s easy to condemn all ranchers, when some jackass abuses the BLM leases and rips up riparian areas and over grazes certain allotments.

Conservative liberal whatever. Stupid is stupid.


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[Huntin_GI]

I agree it's worth reading or listening to. I'm a few hours in at this point.

While I don't think I agree with his overall ideology on the natural world (from what I can gather of his thoughts so far) he has some good points on the failures of the BLM and how the ranching industry can be so detrimental to the environment.

He writes pretty enjoyable prose and it is certainly entertaining and thought provoking. But, so much of his writing is tilted toward pissy environmentalist rant that lacks evidence to back up strong statements he makes, it's hard to take some of the information as truth.

I'm looking forward to getting to the end to see if I can figure out where his head really is.

Make no mistake, the author is the green peace type. He hates hunting and his articulations on hunting are cringe worthy but even here I find value as it provides me a chance to see how those in that camp feel and how they come to their conclusions.

I still feel the main idea of the book still holds quite a bit of uncomfortable truth and each time I've went to google an excerpt from the book I'm more interested in, I find myself agreeing with his position.

I don't think this a book for everyone but I do feel as sportsmen in the west, this book is worth a read.

 

[Huntin_GI]

I also can’t get behind using the book to defend feral horses and demonize the ranching industry. Ranchers are just like any other subset of individuals- some good and some bad. The good ones typically fall in the shadows of the worst eggs.
The 2.1m cattle (your number not mine) that aren’t ran on public ground year round, but 95,000 horses (https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/about-the-program/program-data) that have near zero management, graze in a manner that is more harmful to sensitive Great Basin vegetation communities and prevent native wildlife from accessing water holes during extreme droughts are better than local residents making a living off the land where *shocker* some intermittent grazing is actually beneficial?

The book does a good job pointing out the absurdity of the current horse dilemma in the west. Do horses need to be addressed? Yes. Are cattle operations substantially more impactful on the landscape, biodiversity, and native wildlife? I believe so and by a large margin.

Do I think dumping millions more into wrangling, transporting, and holding horses in perpetuity is the answer? Not in a million years.

 

[HighUintas]

Jesus. This guy Ketcham. He sucks. The further I get into his book, the more I tire of his ranting.

I'm not saying there's not some good points in this book. There are. But, the points trying to be made in this book are disserviced by the author's constant childish, one sided ranting that doesn't provide any substance for many of the very opinionated statements he makes.

The book itself is a great idea and maybe could have shed some light on the issues at hand for someone that is in the ranching industry. This book really is only pandering emotions to the extremist environmental crowd that believes all animals should be given human rights. He's an Edward Abbey wannabe and does a poor job of it.

My rant is probably as bad as his haha. I went into it with an open mind and I generally am good at seeing both sides of the fence. This guy doesn't help though.