Mule deer populations vs elk populations

[Pistolpete28]

As the conversations about declining mule deer populations continue, the reasons for the decline usually include, Mother Nature, habitat loss, predators, technology, to many doe tags, exc. I see multiple states experimenting with these problems to try, and increase populations, but has there ever been some research on taking a unit that is over objective for elk and purposely reducing elk populations in said unit with aggressive cow hunting?

I believe Robby talked, about some sort of a study on the rokcast last year, but that’s all I have heard about it. In my opinion, if it hasn’t been done it needs to be. I know this will ruffle some feathers with the elk community, but I’m very curious. The old timers in states like Colorado, claim when the deer numbers were thriving, it was difficult to find a raghorn bull.

 

[robby denning]

As the conversations about declining mule deer populations continue, the reasons for the decline usually include, Mother Nature, habitat loss, predators, technology, to many doe tags, exc. I see multiple states experimenting with these problems to try, and increase populations, but has there ever been some research on taking a unit that is over objective for elk and purposely reducing elk populations in said unit with aggressive cow hunting?

I believe Robby talked, about some sort of a study on the rokcast last year, but that’s all I have heard about it. In my opinion, if it hasn’t been done it needs to be. I know this will ruffle some feathers with the elk community, but I’m very curious. The old timers in states like Colorado, claim when the deer numbers were thriving, it was difficult to find a raghorn bull.

hey,

the Kaibab in AZ is a year-round elk hunt for this reason (correct me AZ guys if I'm off) but not a good case study because it wasn't a really strong elk herd to begin with.

off the top of my head, that's all I can think of (to your point). I'll think on it more, though.

 

[blkqi]

I expect that, while there is certainly competition between deer and elk, it is a relatively minor component of their complex relationship.

 

[littlebigtine]

Habitat is a limited resource. If there is a shared winter or summer range between elk and mule deer, there is no doubt in my mind that the elk can out compete deer.
Its hard to be certain without larger datasets and histories, but I believe I am seeing it first hand in my backyard.
10 years ago in a specific drainage there were very few elk and roughly 100+ deer that I could estimate through viewing morning and evening in the summer.
Over the course of the last decade the elk have begun to winter in this area. No deer winter there, it is purely summer range for them.
The elk herd has exploded, it feels like 200+ elk hangout in the basin during archery season into November and then roughly half that winter there.
As for the deer? They were slipping, numbers were dropping steadily it seemed. Then 2023 winter hit and you are lucky to see ANY deer out there during summertime scouting. A very stark contrast to 10 years prior.

Strangely enough that deer herd was the only one in my area that I noticed a significant drop in numbers after that hard winter. Is that because the elk herd growing in that area and staying localized had stressed the habitat’s carrying capacity to the point that the deer could not develop the necessary fat reserves to survive the 2023 winter? Its a stretch but not absurd to believe.

If there is one thing that I have learned watching mule deer is that they truly are their environment. For better or worse. Elk don’t seem so loyal and will adapt. They will find the habitat that they prefer. They will roam around and discover unused productive habitat.
Mule deer do not seem to me as nomadic. They seemingly die on the hill that they were born on. You just hope that the hill doesn't get paved.

 

[PathFinder]

The Oak Creeks and Henry Mountains in Utah are an example. They're LE deer units so a bit unique that way, but the UDWR has allowed extremely liberal elk hunting on them for a while now with the express purpose of prioritizing deer over elk on those units.

 

[farmermail]

25 years ago Utah issued OTC cow elk tags for a unit to knock down elk with the hope that would help with local deer population. A lot of elk were killed, well above the objective. Deer populations were not dramatically impacted in subsequent years, however, drought was probably to blame for that.

 

[Pistolpete28]

Habitat is a limited resource. If there is a shared winter or summer range between elk and mule deer, there is no doubt in my mind that the elk can out compete deer.
Its hard to be certain without larger datasets and histories, but I believe I am seeing it first hand in my backyard.
10 years ago in a specific drainage there were very few elk and roughly 100+ deer that I could estimate through viewing morning and evening in the summer.
Over the course of the last decade the elk have begun to winter in this area. No deer winter there, it is purely summer range for them.
The elk herd has exploded, it feels like 200+ elk hangout in the basin during archery season into November and then roughly half that winter there.
As for the deer? They were slipping, numbers were dropping steadily it seemed. Then 2023 winter hit and you are lucky to see ANY deer out there during summertime scouting. A very stark contrast to 10 years prior.

Strangely enough that deer herd was the only one in my area that I noticed a significant drop in numbers after that hard winter. Is that because the elk herd growing in that area and staying localized had stressed the habitat’s carrying capacity to the point that the deer could not develop the necessary fat reserves to survive the 2023 winter? Its a stretch but not absurd to believe.

If there is one thing that I have learned watching mule deer is that they truly are their environment. For better or worse. Elk don’t seem so loyal and will adapt. They will find the habitat that they prefer. They will roam around and discover unused productive habitat.
Mule deer do not seem to me as nomadic. They seemingly die on the hill that they were born on. You just hope that the hill doesn't get paved.

I hear a lot of stories like yours, in my home state I’ve seen areas where elk are supposed to be extremely rare, and now you can find small herds everywhere in that country, and the deer numbers are extremely low compared to 10 years ago…

 

[Pistolpete28]

The Oak Creeks and Henry Mountains in Utah are an example. They're LE deer units so a bit unique that way, but the UDWR has allowed extremely liberal elk hunting on them for a while now with the express purpose of prioritizing deer over elk on those units.

I’m not versed in those units enough to know, but has the elk herd grown in recent years?

 

[mtnrunner260]

Littlebigtine covered a lot of it.
If there is a limiting factor on the landscape, elk will always out compete deer.
Deer have high site fidelity, meaning they will stay where they are and die vs walking a couple miles to a better place. Of course there are punk rock deer that don't follow that rule.
Some research from Wyoming.

Deer-Elk Ecology Research Project – Monteith Shop

monteithshop.org

 

[PathFinder]

I’m not versed in those units enough to know, but has the elk herd grown in recent years?

No, it has dropped drastically or stayed very low. Elk are almost non-existent on both units. Oak Creek was LE for elk maybe 10 years ago or so. It's rock bottom for elk compared to what it was then.
Neither are great elk habitat, they're both more suited for deer. But they are examples of purposely managing for near zero elk to prioritize deer herds.

 

[elkhunter505]

I would bet that there is both direct competition and apparent competition occurring between deer and elk. Not only are elk taking up forage, but they also provide a large prey base for mountain lions. When lions have the choice between elk and deer, I would bet they are choosing deer which can cause that kind of decline. I haven't done a study on it or anything and I haven't read anything on it so definitely no need to be launching off on killing lions or nothing, but I'd love to study it at some point and figure out how it influences mule deer. I think about unit 34 in NM which used to have good deer populations and I remember hunting it back in 2010 or 2011 and seeing a good amount of deer. Since then, elk populations have skyrocketed and I hear locals and many people complaining that the deer population has just plummeted. Same thing with the SE corner of the state where you can see 100 barbary on one hillside and the locals wonder where their deer went. Animals need space along with forage and water, so even if they're not limited by forage and water, they can be limited by the amount of space they need to feel comfortable.

 

[Pistolpete28]

I would bet that there is both direct competition and apparent competition occurring between deer and elk. Not only are elk taking up forage, but they also provide a large prey base for mountain lions. When lions have the choice between elk and deer, I would bet they are choosing deer which can cause that kind of decline. I haven't done a study on it or anything and I haven't read anything on it so definitely no need to be launching off on killing lions or nothing, but I'd love to study it at some point and figure out how it influences mule deer. I think about unit 34 in NM which used to have good deer populations and I remember hunting it back in 2010 or 2011 and seeing a good amount of deer. Since then, elk populations have skyrocketed and I hear locals and many people complaining that the deer population has just plummeted. Same thing with the SE corner of the state where you can see 100 barbary on one hillside and the locals wonder where their deer went. Animals need space along with forage and water, so even if they're not limited by forage and water, they can be limited by the amount of space they need to feel comfortable.

Interesting perspective, never put much thought in the predators picking deer vs elk.

 

[elkhunter505]

Interesting perspective, never put much thought in the predators picking deer vs elk.

Yeah, it's something that we study as wildlife biologists while we are taking our base wildlife courses. There's a lot of information online about "apparent competition" which I think would be valuable for hunters to know. I think hunters could benefit tremendously by learning about general wildlife biology terms like "compensatory mortality". Granted I am biased because I have to find ways to communicate to the public and it would help me explain my work easier if the average hunter had a bit more knowledge of wildlife management. That and I think it could go a long way with the mistrust many hunters have in wildlife management agencies.

 

[Indian Summer]

Without giving it too much thought I would say that is not a solution. You can’t control winters. Most populations are managed by controlling the doe or cow hunting. It all comes down to winter range. In most areas, Elkin deer don’t win in the same place. Deer tend to be more migratory as elk can handle more severe conditions.

In a lot of areas livestock grazing is a reason for poor habitat or feed on wintering grounds. More so than elk.