Moose Hunting Horror Story

[Ray]

Saw this a while a back and looked for additional info to confirm stuff. Nothing appears in various legal databases, but...the Troopers leave stuff out of those on larger more serious cases. However, I would be very surpised that the guide in question does not get wanton waste citations, since they regularly cite hunters for neck and rib meat on a caribou and this guy let three or more whole moose rot after signing meat transfer forms. Legally the hunter is responsible to get the meat out of the field, but if you have a guide/outfitter contract and are paying for services then were does the hunter's responsibility end?

http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=260920

Its a good story about moose hunting and a good story about picking guides/outfitters. If customers do not complain to officials then they don't know and can't do much about future issues with service providers.

If you head down to the Sheep forum you will find a similar thread posted documenting a forum member's 2014 hunt during the same time frame at the same outfit.

 

[SethH]

Yikes!!!!!!!!

 

[kuhn4]

I remember reading this last October. The hunter has a great, positive attitude considering how everything went down.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Shankster ought to be shanked. What a lowlife. Wanton waste, fraud, reckless endangerment, contractual breach, this guy deserves jail time.

 

[tipsntails7]

I'm really appreciative of guys who air guides and outfitters out like this. Hopefully at some point I can get up to AK and it's great to be able to make a list of places I will not be going.

I'm also amazed at the tact and coolness some of these guys exude in these situations. I'm not the most cool headed individual, especially when my savings would go up In smoke like that. I'm gonna have to work bail money into any Alaska hunt I do I guess.

Ray as far as the wanton waste I would have to assume that there is no way they could charge the hunters in this situation. They cut it up and packed It out to the spike camp for pickup, not really sure what more could be expected of the guys, I mean are they expected to hike it 20 miles through the bush back to base after the outfitter picked them up and said he would be back for it.

Personally after seeing how the entire hunt went not a chance In hell I'm leaving my moose on the ground for that guy to pick up.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

I'm really appreciative of guys who air guides and outfitters out like this. Hopefully at some point I can get up to AK and it's great to be able to make a list of places I will not be going.

I'm also amazed at the tact and coolness some of these guys exude in these situations. I'm not the most cool headed individual, especially when my savings would go up In smoke like that. I'm gonna have to work bail money into any Alaska hunt I do I guess.

Ray as far as the wanton waste I would have to assume that there is no way they could charge the hunters in this situation. They cut it up and packed It out to the spike camp for pickup, not really sure what more could be expected of the guys, I mean are they expected to hike it 20 miles through the bush back to base after the outfitter picked them up and said he would be back for it.

Personally after seeing how the entire hunt went not a chance In hell I'm leaving my moose on the ground for that guy to pick up.

Bail money! LOL
I'm right there with ya! I would have lost it on Tom.

 

[Daniel_M]

Wasn't this guide on here not too long ago but under negative review of a sheep hunt? Curious what the temps were, a lot can be done in 4 days to keep meat preserved if you are prepared for that.

 

[Beendare]

I'll chime in here too...as i did on the other forum where Bruce posted this. i bought a sheep hunt at the WSF banquet in Sacramento in 2010 for $6k- what a deal...well maybe.


Its a long story but the RD version;
I flew in from Magrath with 2 other hunters- both rifle and there were about 10 guys in camp with only a couple guides- a big mess and they had all been weathered in for 3 days. I was promised a certain Bow guide and first thing i did was confirm this with Tom and then i met the guide outside and told him to GET EVERYTHING READY TO GO- all of his gear and food ready to go and on the runway. In the meantime, while everyone was in the main tent relaxing in their longjohns drinking beer- we got it together even tho i just flew in. Tom couldn'T fly due to weather. As it goes in AK, shit weather cleared at about 10 pm that night and while everyone else was drunk in their longjohns we were packed and ready to go so when i said," tom its clear" he said who is ready right now....and we flew out first- pissing off many to no end i'm sure.

I flew in after my guide to find half of our dome tents rainfly was shredded and he was trying to fix it. I had seem remnants of another abandoned tent 1/4 mile down river flying in so I walked down, salvaged some of that shredded tent and we jury rigged and duct taped it over our tent.

The sheep hunting sucked as it was an open unit- over the counter tag for residents...but after a few days of tough hunting we found one legal ram and sat on him for a few days trying to get a bow shot. It was wide open. A couple times we got stuck climbing on rocks we had no business scaling without rock climbing gear- I wasn't digging that. I don't mind hiking but that was just stupid. About 5 days in we had 6 different planes circling the legal ram and the guide must have told me 20 times, if i don't shoot that ram soon with a rifle someone is going to come in and shoot him right out from underneath us- so i did...and I regret it. I hadn't shot a rifle in probably 20 years and the steep uphill 240 yd shot with a .338 scoped me but good!

When we got back to Toms main camp there were still guys that hadn't hunted yet- a cluster..... a guy to stay away from for sure. I went out back to look around an the meat he had been using for camp had fly larvae in the ripped game bags- a bit disappointing though cooked it probably didn't make much difference.

Toms outfit is totally unorganized and i would say- stay away. i'm a big boy and its my fault for not doing more homework on the guy even at an auction.

Besides the Tom Shankster thing- i think there is something that needs to be said.

WARNING: Some of these ARE HARD CORE hunts....and not for the faint at heart. If you are getting dropped in the woods in the middle of nowhere- stuff happens...so be ready for that. I'm not making excuses for Toms crummy operation...but I get the feeling some of the guys complaining just don't get what is involved here.

Some of the "can't fly because of weather" in that article...truly is can't fly with a supercub. If you have ever flown in a Supercub...you know what I mean....if its crummy weather you feel like you are in a kite. Almost all of the flying in Ak is line of sight and weather can change from clear to socked in in 20 minutes....not good when you have a 1 hr flight.

Is that dangerous- yes. Can they do anything about it- no. No amount of bit ching or moaning will improve the situation so when you plan one of these hunts- bring your glass half full mood- because things go wrong. I have no doubt the guy in the article got screwed but some of the stuff that happened- HAPPENS- when being dropped off in Ak. You run into difficulties, a guy has to expect that....

our jury rigged tent
View attachment 22780

Did someone say steep- grin
View attachment 22781

The ram
View attachment 22782

 

[Austin]

Beendare, I'd be interested in more info about your experience. email me or hit me up on Facebook at Austin Atkinson [email protected]

 

[Kevin Dill]

The thing which always amazes me is how a guy will only hunt with a very few select hunting partners (I'm that way) and yet spend big money to hire an outfitter they don't know personally...then trust them implicitly to deliver a fantastic hunting adventure. Honestly, most of it is based in a fantasy and most fantasies end with a dose of hard reality. Sometimes the reality is very ugly and turns into a living nightmare. I've been down that road before and it is not one I care to travel again. I got painfully screwed in British Columbia on a wilderness moose hunt, and I'd still like to get face-to-face with the concession owner who burned a number of good people.

In truth...and I believe this 100%...a huge majority of hunters who hire guides cannot accurately quote 75% of the laws/legalities applying to the animal and hunt they are on. They place their trust (and reputations) with the outfitter/guide to do it correctly and keep them legal. If the hunters knew how much was at stake they would possibly bone up and know the laws. In the event of an outfitter who is violating meat care or wanton waste laws, I would document that adequately to protect myself. I would report the same to the proper authorities at first opportunity if the outfitter didn't correct the situation. I have less than no respect for people who kill valuable animals for nothing more than heads and thrills...especially fine-eating animals like moose, sheep, caribou and black bear.

I'm a diy hunter to Alaska every year. We follow the laws precisely. Meat recovery is a priority and we don't even cut the head/rack until ALL meat is recovered and packed away. The last thing to leave the carcass is antlers, and that nearly cost me a few years ago. I killed a moose a far piece from camp with my longbow. It took 2-1/2 days of packing to hike it all out. I brought the head out last, and a big silvertip arrived at the carcass within the hour. I guess my point is this: If I can go to Alaska and do it myself without becoming a violator, surely any outfitter can. Their JOB is to know the laws upside-down and inside-out and not over-step. Any that do it intentionally need to be removed from the job and not permitted to do it again.

I'm looking forward to my next hunt: a solo trip into the low mountains of Fortymile country on a quest for caribou with my longbow. A little more than 6 months to go, then ten days of wilderness on my own. It will be an adventure, but I look forward to doing it and doing it the right way.

 

[Nick Muche]

Kevin, your bou adventure sounds like a great time. Best of luck!

 

[shaun]

I personally know Harold as he is a guide for an outfitter friend of mine. I diddn't read the story when I saw his name because I already pretty much knew the story. Harold used to guide for Shankster and the stores he would tell me were unreal. Sheep Hunters hunting out of camps without guides. Leaving most camp gear out all year in a monster trash pile that was and I believe still is there. Shankster owed Harold money so Harold took him up on letting him go in and kill a bull. I know Shankster runs a tannery out of CO and still tries to guide hunters. Scary part was before I was steered in the right direction I almost pulled the trigger on going with Shankster after meeting him at Sheep Show a few years back. As far as I know Harold's 67" moose is still sitting in camp and he cannot get to them. I am sure I repeated stuff in the story so I apologize if this is repeated info.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Appreciate that Nick. I always like seeing what you write and know you've got tons of adventuring ahead of you, too. Looking forward to a HooDoo Brew!

 

[Nick Muche]

Kevin, let me know when you go grab that Hoodoo Brew and I will buy it for you!

 

[Beendare]

Yeah, I've had a chance now to talk directly with crittergetter...good dude.......what a chit show they had with Shankster.

i think the guides would want to do something about this as it casts a shadow over all of them.

 

[JustOneMoreShot]

I was the member who posted my misadventure in AK on my first Dall Sheep hunt with the same outfitter. Camp was a complete mess for sure with too many hunters waiting around and not enough guides. A film production crew on site filming a documentary on living and building in bush Alaska helped to create even more of a circus atmosphere. The pilot and guides would conduct TV interviews instead of flying when the weather would have a break! It was maddening!
I never did go look at the meat hanging to see it's condition prior to getting cut up and served to the camp and I am glad for that I guess. However I was there at the very beginning of the hunt season so it was likely my harvest and others that were being served in poor condition after I left camp so I missed that. I did hear once I was home that they got hit with bad weather and ran out of food and were rationing peanut butter and other staples as they were almost out and did not know when/if the weather would break to allow them more food in.
I would also comment that I did not see anyone at anytime drinking alcohol or sitting around in their longjohns. EVERY HUNTER was very anxious to get out of the camp and into the field and literally waiting on the pilot to tell them that they were next while I was in camp! Every single hunter was in camp between 1 to 3 days early as per instructed by the outfitter so that they could be sent out to spike camps for sheep or moose. Everyone was frustrated when they were not picked to be the next in the plane and it was agonizing because he would not tell anyone what his plan was. I think that the outfitter would pick which hunter was about to snap and go ballistic for the next one to leave camp honestly. He was pairing hunters physical abilities with where to stick them and who was going to cause trouble in camp for not being flown out right away was moved to the front of the line and pushed out to spike camp.
At the end of the last day before hunting season would open for Dalls, when I was not flown out and it was getting dark he told me that my guide should be arriving soon. He was instructing us to hike over the mountains directly behind camp I was shocked that he wasn't planning on flying me to a "magic place" with lots of sheep. He said don't worry I think that there should be sheep over there. I will fly it in the morning first thing while you are eating breakfast and let you know what I see and where to head. My guide arrived right at dark and we packed and went over gear. Next morning he did not fly to "scout" the area for us like he said he would the day before. Instead he said you two will be fine just go over the rim and start glassing and if I were you I would go left. (well no crap go left because we were at the very start of the mountain range and if you went right you would walk for not too far about a day and get off of the mountains and go into the tundra!)
That was my experience. I have kept in touch with a few of the guides and hunters. Several of the guides/camp help still have not been paid and are super pissed. I don't know what is the final word on the Troopers investigation and punishment(s).
Stay away.

 

[kscowboy01]

I know a guy who shot a B&C moose with Shankster and a sheep. He still wouldn't recommend him!

He said his guide was a registered sex offender (I can't confirm this) and that if Tom didn't like you or think you were physically able to get it done, he'd leave you in camp. Tom kept his moose and wouldn't give it back because it was his advertising piece at shows. The guy was able to get it back but it was a pain and took some pulling of strings and resources that we don't have at our disposal.

I hunted near Tom's area in 2013. The chain of events that we saw unfold were reported to the State Troopers. We saw Tom's plane buzzing back in the the mountains and heard guns shots in that direction about 15 minutes later. It appeared as if he was using the plane to chase sheep to hunters in the field. The next morning, the same plane that was buzzing back in the mountains is flying the hunters out the next AM.

I was told to avoid this outfit by some very reputable guides at FNAWS when I considered bidding on Tom's donated hunt. Glad I avoided this one. He is a salesman, as he followed-up with me after getting my info at FNAWS when I visited his booth. He asked who I booked with and I told him. He said he "never heard of him" and "be careful who you book with because there are some shady outfitters out there." I thanked him for his donations to FNAWS and wished him luck.

My guide/outfitter was great and is a good friend to this day. We got a nice, full-curl ram but worked our butts off for it because Shankster's flying pushed everything out of the country and into the rocks.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Being in business myself and understanding a few things about how businesses think/operate gives me a couple thoughts on these donated hunts:

1. Some hunts are donated because the outfitter is committed to the cause of the organization or animal. It's a way to support the things they believe in, and is not a way for them to profit directly. The hunt will typically be a good one with no corners cut.

2. Some hunts are donated as a way to raise the outfitter's visibility and 'stock value'. The objective is more about advertising and being noticed/considered by additional hunters. Some of these hunts come from outfitters who typically don't book solid, or who have ways to throw in extra hunters at the last minute. In contrast to #1 above, a lot of these hunts will reveal the winning hunter did not receive a high-quality hunt...corners are cut...paying hunters get preferential treatment, etc.

3. Some hunts are just donated by screwballs who want to be viewed as legit professionals, but in reality they are one step from closing shop due to financial problems, legal issues, violations, bad employees, unpaid or unmet obligations, etc. If you could see beneath the thin veneer of their trophy photos, letterhead logo, and color brochures you'd see something more akin to a backyard garage with junk cars and alley cats...and the owner living hand-to-mouth.

I've been flying into the bush for several consecutive years and I've heard/seen what goofy outfitters and pilots can do for the sake of dollars and egos. It truly saddens me that some hunters and outfitters have only the objective of killing an animal, and those ends will justify the means. When the main rewards for a "successful" hunt are money and personal glory, you'll often find people looking for shortcuts to a kill. Everything else about the hunt tends to become an obstacle instead of a challenging adventure.

 

[Liv2Hunt]

Holy crap!!! That guy needs to be tarred and feathered! Thanks for sharing your story! It was good to see you hang in there and be rewarded for your patience! I do wish you would have gotten your meat and antlers back.

Thanks for letting the rest of us know about this guy. I'm sure someone will learn something from your story. I know I will do a lot more due diligence before hiring an air taxi or outfitting service!

 

[bobhunts]

Not the first time I have heard this about the same guy over the years.