Montana

[HunterGatherer]

How about no grazing permits on the winter range ? I bet a lot of Montana ranchers would give up their grazing permits to recover the mule deer herds right ? Right ?

 

[freezerfull]

I am curious here. Let’s talk region 7 for example. I have spent a total of 12 days in the field in this region hunting. This took place over 2 seasons. I don’t really chit chat with many folks since usually I am not at camp during any sort of daylight and don’t frequent the roads and rig most days, however I do keep my awareness up as to what’s going on around me at adjacent camps and/or glassing distant hunters in the field.

These are my takeaways on Region 7
- pressure on public land is high at two tracks and easy walking country
- pressure on public land is low in difficult (I use this loosely here) terrain, long distances from roads and areas with more cover
- area I was camped I’d say was 60/40 split on camps with majority residents.
- other then deer I’ve killed, I’ve seen 10-12 other dead mule deer bucks hanging in camps or getting worked on while there. IIRC the majority of these deer were hanging in camps with MT plates. Could be that NR’s don’t want to show off their kills due to problems with others so that may play into it. I don’t advertise either cause locals would be upset with the bucks I’ve turned up
- I’ve have never seen a dead mule deer in these camps that I would even consider shooting on my way out the last day.

Now questions and comments.
- How is cutting the already capped full price non resident deer tags that are only good for mule deer bucks (or any whitetail) going to improve things?
- Would it not be better to spread NR pressure out by unit specific hunts?
- Why is FWP not looking at the discount tag NR (come home to hunt, b tag pressure, etc.) pressure which is just about equal to the full price deer license pressure?
- though the number of resident hunters hasn’t increased by much, their hunter hours have trended up substantially. Non resident hunter numbers have increased and also their hunter hours spent in the field. Looking at elk data it’s a very similar pressure increase over the last 10 years when looking at both the res and NR hunter hours. So looking at this data, which is typical for Montana (heavily lacking) pressure delta between res and NR is not much different than 10 years ago, however there is more pressure from both sides.
- before limiting NR opportunity and impacting local economic benefits, why is FWP not actually gathering good data (mandatory harvest reporting, etc.)?

 

[AHayes111]

How about no grazing permits on the winter range ? I bet a lot of Montana ranchers would give up their grazing permits to recover the mule deer herds right ? Right ?

Terrible idea. When you remove cattle grazing you give the grass the cows eat a competitive advantage over the forbes and woody brush that mule deer eat.

 

[MThuntrrr]

Until MT gets mandatory reporting any “data” they get from the annual extremely limited phone calls is worthless. The biologists cannot do their jobs effectively without adequate harvest data.

 

[handwerk]

Until MT gets mandatory reporting any “data” they get from the annual extremely limited phone calls is worthless. The biologists cannot do their jobs effectively without adequate harvest data.

I totally agree, I just don't understand how they feel this is complete enough intel to base their decisions on.
It doesn't seem like it would be too hard to set up an online system like many other states do.

 

[Turkeygetpwnd38]

Until FWP at least limits NR to region if not specific GMU they have no control

Until they do mandatory reporting they don’t even know what they need to control. Amazing to me a wildlife agency would be so against easy collectible crucial data.

 

[S.Clancy]

Terrible idea. When you remove cattle grazing you give the grass the cows eat a competitive advantage over the forbes and woody brush that mule deer eat.

I was gonna say, it's always interesting how many people think mule deer eat grass. Forbs/browse make up the majority of what mule deer eat in a given year.

 

[S.Clancy]

How about no grazing permits on the winter range ? I bet a lot of Montana ranchers would give up their grazing permits to recover the mule deer herds right ? Right ?

You should do some research into cattle grazing on the Blacktail and Rob Leford WMAs around the Snowcrest. FWP used grazing during certain periods to increase production on those winter ranges. Today those 2 support a ridiculous number of elk on winter range.

 

[HunterGatherer]

You should do some research into cattle grazing on the Blacktail and Rob Leford WMAs around the Snowcrest. FWP used grazing during certain periods to increase production on those winter ranges. Today those 2 support a ridiculous number of elk on winter range.

Okay, On your advice I will do some more research. I know from first hand experiences here in Idaho, that grazing can be a double-edged sword. Good grazing can help, but bad grazing (overgrazing) can also ruin critical winter range habitat for deer and I have witnessed a lot of overgrazed areas where I shed hunt for example. These are areas where I have spent time in consecutive seasons for over 20 years and witnessed the changes in the landscape that resulted in loss of mule deer habitat.

Deer can benefit from the increase in shrub types that grazing can help promote but they also don’t like to utilize areas where cattle are actively grazing and I often see cattle on the winter range during times when deer need to utilize that habitat.

 

[HunterGatherer]

I was gonna say, it's always interesting how many people think mule deer eat grass. Forbs/browse make up the majority of what mule deer eat in a given year.

https://www.wnps.org/content/documents/conservation/2008-Elk-response-to-livestock-grazing.pdf#:~:text=In%20east%2Dcentral%20Idaho%2C%20the%20distributions%20of%20elk%2C,deer%20selected%20habitats%20grazed%20previously%20by%20cattle.

 

[BlackHillsShooter]

We hunted hard for a week in Eastern Montana, and didn't see a buck I wanted to shoot. Forkys chasing does everywhere! Watched a Forky running a hot doe in a group of 19 does.

People driving absolutely everywhere, even in non motorized zones we had walked for 2 hours in the dark to access. There's so many issues with how Montana is managing that herd, but if they would clamp down on people driving absolutely everywhere it would make a real difference! Put out a road access map, and seize every atv that violates it. Could pay for doubling their wardens. It's not just non-residents either. The driving everywhere was even worse from the Montana plates. There's tire tracks along every edge of every coulee on BLM or State Land. I don't think there was a single day that we hadn't walked into an area, only to have a truck come bouncing by. Absolutely disgusting.

I'm from the east, Maine. Moved to SD 4 or so years ago. Learning all of the differences in hunting here has been fun for the most part. After roaming the big woods every November and going wherever I wanted for decades, it's hard to look at all the open land and be boxed into tiny areas of public with often times confusing access rules. I've learned to live with it and follow the rules when I understand them.

That said, I saw what you're talking about. First time ever in SE Montana and antelope hunting. I've never hunted antelope and was pretty excited to draw tags about 1.5 hours from home. On a rainy day I was parked 10 feet off the road at the start of a ranch two track, no gate. Raining hard and I was considering leaving for the day instead of traipsing through gumbo. Sitting there, truck off, eating a sandwich and a flat bed pickup shows up. I look back and he's just sitting there. I figure he wants access to the two track so I backed out onto the road and pulled over.

This rancher pulls up and was hot under the collar. Red faced. It was a one sided conversation complete with threats. Tried to tell him I was just sitting there not going to drive anywhere out there which would be stupid as hell considering the conditions, but he'd have none of it. You hunters don't get along with us ranchers, was repeated several times. I'm 64, don't like getting talked to like that. Told him I'm responsible for my own actions, didn't intend to do anything wrong and and that I had already covered many miles on foot for this hunt. I even apologized trying to calm him down and said that now I understand what I did wrong that I won't take my truck off of the main road at all. He wasn't listening, just wanted me gone. I probably could have solved the problem between him and I if he wasn't so pissed off but it wasn't about just me. Told me his men were coming and that I didn't want to piss them off pretty much ended every bit of that conversation right then. I rolled up the window and finished my sandwich. His men did drive by a little while later but they they didn't stop. I saw them later sitting at the border as I was leaving.

The weekend before I took a drive up to look around but was going to hunt later, mid week. It was the opener and I saw wall tents just off the road, big campers, guys in pickups driving the ranch access roads or wherever they wanted. Even saw a pickup trying to drive up to a herd of antelope 800 yards off of the road. I thought it must be normal, if not at odds with what I thought were walk in rules. It was a zoo of course, but now I get it. We as hunters are our own worst enemy at times and with all the "no hunting" signs everywhere, I completely understand the relationship between land owner/steward and hunter. It isn't good.

After what I saw, I understand the rancher being pissed off at hunters in general. The rules are being broken. I unfortunately didn't have a decent first antelope hunt as I lost interest in revisiting the area or even trying to get onto another piece of public for a walk. Both sides can bow their back about access rights but nobody is going to solve a damned thing on the side of the road. Especially when the temperature is already on high.

 

[AHayes111]

I'm from the east, Maine. Moved to SD 4 or so years ago. Learning all of the differences in hunting here has been fun for the most part. After roaming the big woods every November and going wherever I wanted for decades, it's hard to look at all the open land and be boxed into tiny areas of public with often times confusing access rules. I've learned to live with it and follow the rules when I understand them.

That said, I saw what you're talking about. First time ever in SE Montana and antelope hunting. I've never hunted antelope and was pretty excited to draw tags about 1.5 hours from home. On a rainy day I was parked 10 feet off the road at the start of a ranch two track, no gate. Raining hard and I was considering leaving for the day instead of traipsing through gumbo. Sitting there, truck off, eating a sandwich and a flat bed pickup shows up. I look back and he's just sitting there. I figure he wants access to the two track so I backed out onto the road and pulled over.

This rancher pulls up and was hot under the collar. Red faced. It was a one sided conversation complete with threats. Tried to tell him I was just sitting there not going to drive anywhere out there which would be stupid as hell considering the conditions, but he'd have none of it. You hunters don't get along with us ranchers, was repeated several times. I'm 64, don't like getting talked to like that. Told him I'm responsible for my own actions, didn't intend to do anything wrong and and that I had already covered many miles on foot for this hunt. I even apologized trying to calm him down and said that now I understand what I did wrong that I won't take my truck off of the main road at all. He wasn't listening, just wanted me gone. I probably could have solved the problem between him and I if he wasn't so pissed off but it wasn't about just me. Told me his men were coming and that I didn't want to piss them off pretty much ended every bit of that conversation right then. I rolled up the window and finished my sandwich. His men did drive by a little while later but they they didn't stop. I saw them later sitting at the border as I was leaving.

The weekend before I took a drive up to look around but was going to hunt later, mid week. It was the opener and I saw wall tents just off the road, big campers, guys in pickups driving the ranch access roads or wherever they wanted. Even saw a pickup trying to drive up to a herd of antelope 800 yards off of the road. I thought it must be normal, if not at odds with what I thought were walk in rules. It was a zoo of course, but now I get it. We as hunters are our own worst enemy at times and with all the "no hunting" signs everywhere, I completely understand the relationship between land owner/steward and hunter. It isn't good.

After what I saw, I understand the rancher being pissed off at hunters in general. The rules are being broken. I unfortunately didn't have a decent first antelope hunt as I lost interest in revisiting the area or even trying to get onto another piece of public for a walk. Both sides can bow their back about access rights but nobody is going to solve a damned thing on the side of the road. Especially when the temperature is already on high.

One of the reasons I am on hunting forums like this one is if I only dealt with all the crummy hunters I see doing stuff like you describe and far worse, I would get a very jaded view of hunters and hunting. Interacting with quality hunters on this and other forums provide some balance.