Montana Wolves - looking for real-world perspectives

[Pacific_Fork]

View attachment 1051986
Check out OP's pfp too. I might be wrong but the sleeve that goes out of frame looks too long and that's a bizarre way to carry a rifle.

higher than ten hippies after a BHA pint night

 

[mtnbiker208]

Apex predators are absolutely not needed anywhere that humans are allowed to hunt.

I would have to disagree with this statement. I guess i like wild places and knowing wild animals are there.
Not everyone needs safe places.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I would have to disagree with this statement. I guess i like wild places and knowing wild animals are there.
Not everyone needs safe places.

My point was related to management of big game species.

Additionally, just because you want other predators to exist, doesn’t mean they need to exist. Man is the apex predator on this planet. Other animals exist only because we choose to let them.

I can agree with you that it is nice to have some other predators around. Generally someplace far away from people. But they are not at all necessary for anything.

And when it comes to having some other predators around, I am a total NIMBY. And I expect most people to feel the same way as I do. I am very happy to live where I don’t have to worry about predators eating my kids, cattle, dogs, chickens, etc. I think most people feel that way as well. I am not going to exterminate every last predator around me, but I choose to live in a neighborhood free of brown bears, wolves, and mountain lions. The black bears, coyotes, raccoons, and etc. can stick around as long as they don’t get too uppity.

So, given that, I am not going to ever support putting them in someone else’s backyard.

 

[AKBC]

Here in Alaska some folks were concerned that there weren't enough moose in certain areas.

Alaska Dept of Fish and Game conducted browse surveys to determine the percentage of available browse that was consumed over the winter. If areas that were previously known to support more moose had a high percentage of browse available at the end of the winter, predation (by wolves and bears) was assumed to be the cause of the declining moose population. Poor calf survival is another key metric of high predation they considered.

Some of the areas with a declining moose population and poor calf survival were subjected to intensive wolf and bear harvest which generally speaking resulted in increased moose populations. The predator control programs are controversial of course. Predator populations seem to recover quite quickly when control programs end which causes some folks to say is proof they don't work.

 

[WindShiftedAgain]

I'm highly suspect of new members posting about wolves.

I my experience there is almost always an alternative motive.

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

No motive other than trying to figure out my stance. I've carried a wolf tag hunting the last 2 years and have gotten both agreement and guff from others that I've talked about it with (guff coming mostly from non-hunters). I don't really have enough info and don't feel like I've talked to enough people who i believe have info to have a strong stance myself, but if im going to carry a wolf tag/harvest one, I'd like to do so from a defensible position. Figured this wasn't a bad place to get input.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

No motive other than trying to figure out my stance. I've carried a wolf tag hunting the last 2 years and have gotten both agreement and guff from others that I've talked about it with (guff coming mostly from non-hunters). I don't really have enough info and don't feel like I've talked to enough people who i believe have info to have a strong stance myself, but if im going to carry a wolf tag/harvest one, I'd like to do so from a defensible position. Figured this wasn't a bad place to get input.

How is your rifle resting on the back of your neck? Your photo looks very sus in a few ways as mentioned

 

[WindShiftedAgain]

Look up Trinity Vandenacre on YouTube or his website. He really seems to breakdown the wolf issue including the politics behind the wolves.

Trinity Vandenacre Adventure

Life in the West

trinityvandenacre.com

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=life+in+the+west

Thank you! This is what I'm looking for

 

[WindShiftedAgain]

How is your rifle resting on the back of your neck? Your photo looks very sus in a few ways as mentioned

Knew this forum could be cynical, but didn't know I'd have to prove my rifle carry to show im not a bot or some sort of political insurgent.... Rests between my frame and pack brain. Ive carried that way ever since I got the pack 3 years ago as long as im moving through open country. My bad for posting on such a charged topic i guess.

 

[RockAndSage]

Knew this forum could be cynical, but didn't know I'd have to prove my rifle carry to show im not a bot or some sort of political insurgent.... Rests between my frame and pack brain. Ive carried that way ever since I got the pack 3 years ago as long as im moving through open country. My bad for posting on such a charged topic i guess.

Don't let it get to you. And, respect for searching out opinions.

Please know that this forum does regularly get targeted for information warfare by Russia and other hostile actors - they set up accounts and do things similar to what you did in starting this thread, albeit usually with a bit less fluency in hunting culture. But it's a common thing, and they do it with strategic intent, to influence and bend audiences. Often with multiple accounts, each presenting a different point of view, but coordinated for specific effects. Even innocent original posts serve as bait - those are the kinds of openings they look for, over time.

 

[WindShiftedAgain]

Don't let it get to you. And, respect for searching out opinions.

Please know that this forum does regularly get targeted for information warfare by Russia and other hostile actors - they set up accounts and do things similar to what you did in starting this thread, albeit usually with a bit less fluency in hunting culture. But it's a common thing, and they do it with strategic intent, to influence and bend audiences. Often with multiple accounts, each presenting a different point of view, but coordinated for specific effects. Even innocent original posts serve as bait - those are the kinds of openings they look for, over time.

Thats's crazy, I had no idea. The idea being that it all falls into the search algo even if its complete B.S.? I guess thats how i came accross rokslide so many times myself and finally decided to join, but almost all of my rokslide lurker experience came from gear research, not conservation or politics.

Thanks for the info. Now I'm questioning the responses that i liked...

I can see how it looks odd coming from a FNG like that though. I thought the profile picture would lend me some cred rather than further skepticism lol but that makes total sense. In hindsight, I probably should have held off on posting about something so charged. If a mod wants/needs to pull it down, totally understand.

 

[WoodlandCritter]

My point was related to management of big game species.

Additionally, just because you want other predators to exist, doesn’t mean they need to exist. Man is the apex predator on this planet. Other animals exist only because we choose to let them.

I can agree with you that it is nice to have some other predators around. Generally someplace far away from people. But they are not at all necessary for anything.

And when it comes to having some other predators around, I am a total NIMBY. And I expect most people to feel the same way as I do. I am very happy to live where I don’t have to worry about predators eating my kids, cattle, dogs, chickens, etc. I think most people feel that way as well. I am not going to exterminate every last predator around me, but I choose to live in a neighborhood free of brown bears, wolves, and mountain lions. The black bears, coyotes, raccoons, and etc. can stick around as long as they don’t get too uppity.

So, given that, I am not going to ever support putting them in someone else’s backyard.

Might makes right huh? Just because we invented strychnine synthesis and conibears gives us the right to decide what species go extinct or not? Maybe you wouldn't exterminate "every last predator around" you. But the logical extension of your argument wouldn't preclude someone else from doing so.

I would not put my own desire for safety and game animals above my duty to be a good steward of all things that God, Providence, or random chance put on this planet. Some people seem to misinterpret that duty as being misanthropic, which couldn't be farther from the truth. I think very few people on this forum would fail to agree that spending time in the natural world is one of the greatest things a person can do for their wellbeing. So I think we should do our best to maintain that natural world in as complete a state as is reasonably possible. I think its highly arrogant as a species to pick and choose the parts that suit us and toss out the rest.

Call me a hypocrite for not getting rid of my indoor plumbing or shunning antibiotics if you want. Life is about compromises and we all have to pick where we draw our lines. But outside of my fence line I err towards letting nature be intact so that myself and many generations to come can have the opportunity to enjoy the magnificent beauty of the world in all its splendor.

 

[PlentyOfDoes]

No motive other than trying to figure out my stance. I've carried a wolf tag hunting the last 2 years and have gotten both agreement and guff from others that I've talked about it with (guff coming mostly from non-hunters). I don't really have enough info and don't feel like I've talked to enough people who i believe have info to have a strong stance myself, but if im going to carry a wolf tag/harvest one, I'd like to do so from a defensible position. Figured this wasn't a bad place to get input.

Its worth considering that many 'non-hunters' do not understand the way hunting in North America works even at a basic level. Plenty of them think we just wander around and blast anything with a pulse. I wouldn't put too much stock in their opinions. Wolves need to be managed like any other species if they are going to be around people. The debate around if wolves should be there or not is far above my pay grade. My stance is if they are there, we need a plan to manage them.

 

[Customweld]

Here is my Idaho perspective. I was around before they were introduced. I hunted the MF of the Salmon River units, close to where they were released. The first few years, I didn't notice any difference, the 3rd year all of the moose on a particular valley floor were gone. The 4th year, the elk weren't there either. The 5th year, I moved to a different elk unit.
The Central Idaho wilderness zones are way below population objectives. IMO, this is due to a few different reasons. Predation, nutrition and poor calf/fawn recruitment.
Fast forward 30 years. There have been many generations of elk since reintroduction and these new generations have evolved. There are now big herds in places that historically didn’t have them. Some of that is due to ag practices ie, irrigation and fields that were idol ground, consolidation of ranches into vast holdings that are primarily off limits to hunters. Changes in forest management, less logging and conifer stands maturing also have an effect.
I used to absolutely abhor the fact that they were reintroduced, but grudges are heavy and I’m kinda lazy, so I’ve learned to make the best of it.
They absolutely affect elk behavior when they are close. Bulls seem to be much more quiet but I’m sure that the barrage of hunters throwing bugles and hoochie calls every 50 yards don’t help either.
I like to tell guys, wolves are in the business of eating. If there are wolves, elk are in the area. If there wasn’t anything to eat, they wouldn’t be there.

 

[RockAndSage]

But outside of my fence line I err towards letting nature be intact so that myself and many generations to come can have the opportunity to enjoy the magnificent beauty of the world in all its splendor.

So, I can respect this instinct. To some degree, I actually share it.

That said, can you also see how some may have this same instinct, and have it lead to the belief that humans are actually alien to "nature", and that wolves, grizzly, and cougar should not have to compete for food with gun-toting, truck driving humans voluntarily hunting for "sport"? Or that "intact" means untouched by human hands - that neither forest nor deer herd should be molested by our filthy, unnatural existence, and only the majesty of nature should engage in a "natural" hunt?

"Protecting" the land is one of those areas where slices of our side get co-opted by people who want us out of that very landscape.

Any belief that looks at humans as the problem or as alien to "nature" is a genuinely sinister threat. I can clearly see that's not how you view things, but there are those who see people this way, who use our genuine interest in protecting the land, and our appreciation of that majesty, to cut us and our kids right out of it.

 

[repins05]

Why do people continue to believe the numbers fish and wildlife spit out are accurate? and then use mathematical equations to come up with a statement that the wolf population is not adversely affecting deer and elk numbers across the western states.

I am mind blown that anyone thinks a biologist can accurately determine the wolf count in any particular area or western state. Then continues to tell us that a wolf kills a particular number of ungulates in a year. If I had the intelligence and stealth of a wildlife biologist, I would be killing 400+ bulls every year.

It's not hard winters that have killed all of the muleys off. There were worse winters 30-50 years ago and numbers remained stable.

 

[Hunterscamera]

Check out OP's pfp too. I might be wrong but the sleeve that goes out of frame looks too long and that's a bizarre way to carry a rifle.

Ahhh idk, I have to work with AI images quite a bit.

And I'd say his face ain't "perfect" enough. No offense OP

 

[Ross]

Hunted unit 121 and the cabinets for 20 years. Have several friends around Noxon and Thompson Falls. Through the years I hunted, I met many of the outfitters and larger hunting camps. Many of the camps were guys from Missoula, Kalispell and further away. The area had a long history of Trophy Quality. I had many very good years and often would pass on several bulls. It was very common opening weekend to have 5-7 bulls bugling and chasing cows during the 3rd estrus. Slowly things changed and would find wolf kills. Some of the remote drainages were decimated. At this stage, with good trapping drainages are rebounding, but nothing like they were. The country in the Nwest corner is vast and heavily timbered, perfect for wolves to impact areas heavily. You can see a lot of elk closer to civilization, not the way it was or is supposed to be.

 

[406RoadToad]

Another vote for AI. Whenever you prompt AI for something like this it always annoyingly adds in bullet points for some reason.