Montana preference points expiration

[CMF]

I was planning to hunt WY next year and go back to MT in 2024. Not sure how to plan that now, I was going to get points in 22,23, and one going into the draw in 24. Guess I'll have to see how the odds shake out after this year.
It sure was a lot easier to plan before this crap.

 

[Erict]

FYI - MOGA (Montana Outfitters & Guides Association) sent out a message to members yesterday that someone forwarded to me. I found a few new things on it regarding Preference Points (PP):

1. "Those who applied to the general draw with preference points but were unsuccessful will now be included in the alternate list for drawing. This was a simple fairness issue and corrects and oversight that excluded non-residents WITH preference points from the Alternate list drawing."


2. "If applying as a party, all members must elect to purchase the outfitter preference point. Any member of a party that does not elect to purchase an outfitter preference point will be removed from the party and entered as an individual in the drawing.

Side Note: If a client has two points already (say they purchased them in 2020 and 2021) they may only purchase a single preference point in 2022 and will hold three. They will not be allowed to purchase a fourth Outfitter Preference point and can therefore not be included in a party application with others who hold Outfitter preference points. An Outfitter preference point cannot be purchased without also purchasing a general preference point."


3. "If one person in the bundled party has an Outfitter point, then ALL the members of the party must have an outfitter point and they must ALL hunt with an outfitter."


4. "Know that if you use an Outfitter Preference Point to gain a license that license can ONLY be used when hunting with an outfitter. This is not a small thing and to falsify the application, or to use the license obtained through an Outfitter preference point by NOT hunting with an outfitter will carry the equivalent fine as lying about your residency on a license."

 

[ndbuck09]

Seems like all this mickey mouse point crap simply opens the door for all kinds of violations to enforce, which won't be.

 

[bigbuckdj]

If you apply and are unsuccessful, can you purchase a point during the point period?

Let’s say I have a point, I don’t want to draw the license this year. Can I apply, knowing I won’t draw with one point, buy a point later, and go into next year with 2?

I think the answer is no, I just want to make sure


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[Riplip]

If you apply and are unsuccessful, can you purchase a point during the point period?

Let’s say I have a point, I don’t want to draw the license this year. Can I apply, knowing I won’t draw with one point, buy a point later, and go into next year with 2?

I think the answer is no, I just want to make sure


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No, if you apply and don't purchase a point at time of application, you cannot buy a point later in the Summer.

 

[KINGSNAKE]

This is a very interesting dynamic and I think It could possibly reduce non resident interest in montana over time. My current situation is two points so I should draw a tag this year buying my third point. But in three more years when the number of non resident guys with 3 points is way over and things start leaning towards random draws and uncertainty. That's when I'm less interested. Most years I try to have a plan A on a hunt. But I don't enter a ton of random draws because I only have so much time away from home. It may discourage me from montana in the long run. Question. At three points max you can't buy more points? But you have to put in the draw every year, which will one day become random
So they are gonna take your 300 dollars over 3 years so you can stand in line for a random draw. That sound like it may do exactly what montana exactly attempting to do. Raise revenue and push some non residents away. But when will they move the goal post to 5 points and 500 dollars to get to random? This could be my last or second to last rodeo in MT.

 

[bigbuckdj]

With not being able to buy a point after an unsuccessful draw, some people are just going to choose to apply with zero points every year. If you choose to buy a point you’re basically saying you’re gonna buy three before you hunt. So outfitted folks will hunt it every other year, points guys will hunt it every third year, and zero points guys will just hope to draw it every year.
So complicated, it kind of makes me want to be a zero point guy but I like to plan.


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[Trap]

Here is a hypothetical situation that seems unclear.

Apply in 2022 with 0, unsuccessful in draw, and buy a point after the draw.
Do you then have to apply in 2023 or are you good with sitting out because you applied the year before?
It sounds like you lose the point.

I like that they are making people apply, but planning is nice especially when the Colorado app/results window overlaps Montana.

They told me if you enter the draw with 0 you can not buy a point after the draw. If you enter the draw you can only buy your point then. You can’t go 0 points draw and then buy the points

 

[Riplip]

They told me if you enter the draw with 0 you can not buy a point after the draw. If you enter the draw you can only buy your point then. You can’t go 0 points draw and then buy the points

This is correct, and has been for several years. The only way to buy a point later during the Summer is if you did not apply for a tag earlier in the year.

 

[Bearded Bowhunter]

Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned is the unknown/unintended consequences this will have on the amount of bonus points it will take to draw LE units year over year. You could start running into situations where there are multi-point up/down swings in bonus point requirements to draw since those high point holders might not even be able to swing a general license even though they should statistically be able to draw at that bonus point level.

Would possibly allow for guys with several less bonus points, but better timing in the 3 year general cycle to draw those units.

Maybe overthinking it, but thought is was an interesting (maddening) thought.

 

[bsnedeker]

Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned is the unknown/unintended consequences this will have on the amount of bonus points it will take to draw LE units year over year. You could start running into situations where there are multi-point up/down swings in bonus point requirements to draw since those high point holders might not even be able to swing a general license even though they should statistically be able to draw at that bonus point level.

Would possibly allow for guys with several less bonus points, but better timing in the 3 year general cycle to draw those units.

Maybe overthinking it, but thought is was an interesting (maddening) thought.

I kind of doubt it will have much of an impact. We have enough resident interest in the LE tags (and an ever-growing population) that the point requirements are going to continue to go up, just like everywhere else.

Remember, Montana allows a MAX of 10% of LE permits going to NR's....we don't guarantee a certain number of LE permits to NR's. If fewer NR's start applying for LE permits that just means resident applicants will take their place.

 

[mTNhunter86]

Well, all my griping about the changes notwithstanding, I put in my MT application. I can't decide if I want you all to wish me luck or not. Drawing a general tag and not my LE tag is really going to throw a wrench in my future plans!

 

[tntrker]

I was planning to hunt WY next year and go back to MT in 2024. Not sure how to plan that now, I was going to get points in 22,23, and one going into the draw in 24. Guess I'll have to see how the odds shake out after this year.
It sure was a lot easier to plan before this crap.

I've been building for a WY in 24 (will have 4pts) but planned for Mt this year with three. I believe Montana will HAVE to change something again either next year or year after as everyone will be topped out at 3, and lose money/points when not drawn. If it were me wanting a Mt in 24, I'd buy the points this year and next and see what plays out...I'd bet they will have to remove the cap of 3 off PPs, but I live is SC so what do I know...

 

[Scoot]

If I draw the general license and not the LE permit and then return the general license, do I lose my bonus points?

 

[Riplip]

If I draw the general license and not the LE permit and then return the general license, do I lose my bonus points?

No, but you would lose your Preference Point(s). Bonus Point don't expire until you draw a LE Permit.

 

[Erict]

I've been building for a WY in 24 (will have 4pts) but planned for Mt this year with three. I believe Montana will HAVE to change something again either next year or year after as everyone will be topped out at 3, and lose money/points when not drawn. If it were me wanting a Mt in 24, I'd buy the points this year and next and see what plays out...I'd bet they will have to remove the cap of 3 off PPs, but I live is SC so what do I know...

They do not HAVE to change anything. Preference points (PP) simply put you in a group with all others with the same number of PP. In theory, 2022 could be 100% draw with 3 PP, 2023 could be 90% draw with 3 PP, 2024 could be 75% with 3 PP, but that does not "force" them to change their system.

A certain percentage will never top out at 3 PP because they will take their chances (possibly better) with 0 PP.

Additionally, no one loses PP when not drawn. No one loses money when not drawn, unless you consider the application fees and base licenses that are not refunded for non-draws. If I don't draw this year I'm still considering Antelope, Deer B, turkey, upland birds, coyotes and badgers.

 

[repins05]

following...

 

[tntrker]

They do not HAVE to change anything. Preference points (PP) simply put you in a group with all others with the same number of PP. In theory, 2022 could be 100% draw with 3 PP, 2023 could be 90% draw with 3 PP, 2024 could be 75% with 3 PP, but that does not "force" them to change their system.

A certain percentage will never top out at 3 PP because they will take their chances (possibly better) with 0 PP.

Additionally, no one loses PP when not drawn. No one loses money when not drawn, unless you consider the application fees and base licenses that are not refunded for non-draws. If I don't draw this year I'm still considering Antelope, Deer B, turkey, upland birds, coyotes and badgers.

ok, we'll see what happens in a few years as I guessed IMO..

 

[PaBone]

The way I'm reading the preference point changes this year if you have to apply every other year going forward DIY hunters can only go into the drawing with 2 points and someone booked with an outfitter can have 3. Since I lost my 1500 dollar down payment to a licensed Montana outfitter last year that took everyone's money and left the state, I have no plans on using an outfitter again. I did go last year DIY and had a great hunt and applied this year as a party of three with 1.7 preference points. I'm not feeling great about drawing a general elk combo but keeping my fingers crossed. It's tough for us older hunters who know we don't have a lot of good hunting years left to keep up with all the points and drawings and increasing hunting pressure just to try and make it out west every year to hunt.

 

[CMF]

I've been building for a WY in 24 (will have 4pts) but planned for Mt this year with three. I believe Montana will HAVE to change something again either next year or year after as everyone will be topped out at 3, and lose money/points when not drawn. If it were me wanting a Mt in 24, I'd buy the points this year and next and see what plays out...I'd bet they will have to remove the cap of 3 off PPs, but I live is SC so what do I know...

Except I'll have to apply next year(23) or lose the point I get this year. I'll risk drawing MT next year when I'm certain(almost) that I'll draw WY. I guess I may be able to withdraw my WY app if I do draw MT if the dates work out, but I'm not sure.