Montana corner crossing lawsuit.

[dallen]

On FB it looked like Rack Junkies posted a link to the zoom meeting in Glasgow for June 1-2. Can we get a link here?

Private Land/Public Wildlife (PLPW) Advisory Committee | Montana FWP

Private Land/Public Wildlife (PLPW) Advisory Committee information.

fwp.mt.gov

 

[AHayes111]

It’s pretty simple.

Any public piece that’s locked up for recreational purposes should be locked up for all recreational purposes.

No hunting, period, by anyone.


They can still run their production lease, grazing/farming what have you, just no recreational activities.

Watch the outfitters association pass a peach pit! And let’s be clear, ultimately this is a guide/outfitter problem.

This was tried with state land back when lease holder controlled access. It didn't work. Most ranchers and outfitters were good with that arrangement. The outfitters didn't need to hunt the state, as over the coarse of the season, every buck on the state would work their way onto the private at some point. I am sure that there was some outfitters that cheated too. The people that were hurt the most by this were family/ friends that had worked hard to build a relationship to gain access to hunt. I remember those few years, we let a lot of people hunt back then and still do. Had to tell the hunters that the state was now off limits.

I remember busting three guy from Butte on the state during this time. I was setting on a hill and hear several shots in the directions of the state. Shortly after a pickup is driving slowly up the road and parks. I look back at the state and with binoculars can see two guys in orange running through the sage. I drive home and call the warden and head down to the state. Get there just as the three are loading two ungutted bucks in the back of the pickup. One of the guys grabs a map and tries to tell me they think they are on public 10 miles away. Not the first time I have seen that one. I knew it was a lie, they had no idea where they were and figured it was private. If they had thought it was public they would have gutted the bucks and one of them would not have left with the pickup while the other two pulled the deer down to the road. I have no mercy when hunters lie to me. When they found out they were actually on state land they tried to claim I must have been hunting it too, but that didn't stick as I was setting on a hill over a mile from the state.

 

[mt terry d]

Better be careful what we wish for especially witn our legislature if it ever goes on the books officially. As MT law. I’d feel pretty comfortable crossing in the current state of affairs plus knowing how the 10th circuit fell. Our governor and legislature could easily pass a law against this in the next session.

That's quite true.

Also of note if there is not a USGS corner pin then one really can’t legally corner cross. ONX is far from accurate enough to show a corner down to the nearest inch. There is a decent percent of corner pins not in around this state.

I wouldn't bet that to be the case. I will bet there isn't one in ten fence corners in MT that are dead on or fence lines that aren't off by ten or twenty feet at times.

 

[100percent]

Private corner crossing doesn’t exist. Landowners don’t care if a neighbor drives a 40-foot combine through their property to access public or private property. But if a hunter wants to access public land they feel is theirs, by God, everyone knows that brief intrusion in the corner airspace is criminal!

This is a statement without thought and respect for the other party. Context and perspective are important!

Ranchers know their neighbor!!! They likely know where he lives and have some knowledge of his character…. They know whom to seek damages from if they leave the gate open and all the cows get out or throw down a cigarette and burn 20000 acres of range. That arrangement provides at least some element of control and/or accountability.

Joe Public from Anchorage to Miami with no constraint provides the landowner, none of the above!

Throw in the quest for trophy women and/or game animals then, otherwise, prudent people forego common sense and good judgement in their pursuits.

Look at block management! Guys must identify themselves and agree to terms by signing in and every season a collection of idiots still manage to provide a good example of why the public shouldn’t be trusted! BM is a somewhat controlled environment, how do we provide a level of control and accountability at every fence corner? Next to impossible! Another thread on here suggests Idaho timber companies revoked their free access lease to the state due to trash, unlawful atv riding, etc…. Here we go, again! Extrapolate that opportunity for neglect across every corner we would like to access! 100’s? 1000’s??? Who’s going to police that?

I’m for finding a solution to this opportunity but, i always view this from a perspective of just how really stupid, unthoughtful and disrespectful some people can be!

 

[One300wsm]

This is a statement without thought and respect for the other party. Context and perspective are important!

Ranchers know their neighbor!!! They likely know where he lives and have some knowledge of his character…. They know whom to seek damages from if they leave the gate open and all the cows get out or throw down a cigarette and burn 20000 acres of range. That arrangement provides at least some element of control and/or accountability.

Joe Public from Anchorage to Miami with no constraint provides the landowner, none of the above!

Throw in the quest for trophy women and/or game animals then, otherwise, prudent people forego common sense and good judgement in their pursuits.

Look at block management! Guys must identify themselves and agree to terms by signing in and every season a collection of idiots still manage to provide a good example of why the public shouldn’t be trusted! BM is a somewhat controlled environment, how do we provide a level of control and accountability at every fence corner? Next to impossible! Another thread on here suggests Idaho timber companies revoked their free access lease to the state due to trash, unlawful atv riding, etc…. Here we go, again!

I’m for finding a solution to this opportunity but, i always view this from a perspective of just how really stupid, unthoughtful and disrespectful some people can be!

100%,
I leave no signs of any human existence when I corner cross, other than the occasional dead carcass stripped of all edible flesh. I agree with what you’re saying and sadly it’s true. There's always that one or two that muck it all up for us all.
Just look no further than our government .

 

[realunlucky]

This is a statement without thought and respect for the other party. Context and perspective are important!

Ranchers know their neighbor!!! They likely know where he lives and have some knowledge of his character…. They know whom to seek damages from if they leave the gate open and all the cows get out or throw down a cigarette and burn 20000 acres of range. That arrangement provides at least some element of control and/or accountability.

Joe Public from Anchorage to Miami with no constraint provides the landowner, none of the above!

Throw in the quest for trophy women and/or game animals then, otherwise, prudent people forego common sense and good judgement in their pursuits.

Look at block management! Guys must identify themselves and agree to terms by signing in and every season a collection of idiots still manage to provide a good example of why the public shouldn’t be trusted! BM is a somewhat controlled environment, how do we provide a level of control and accountability at every fence corner? Next to impossible! Another thread on here suggests Idaho timber companies revoked their free access lease to the state due to trash, unlawful atv riding, etc…. Here we go, again! Extrapolate that opportunity for neglect across every corner we would like to access! 100’s? 1000’s??? Who’s going to police that?

I’m for finding a solution to this opportunity but, i always view this from a perspective of just how really stupid, unthoughtful and disrespectful some people can be!

The entire point is you don't get to control every fence corner if you only own 50% or 25% of that space.

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[StupidLightweight]

A large number of public land hunters are disgusting slobs. I hope they are ticketed and shamed for the disrespectful antics they pull. A large number of landowners ruthlessly hoard public land to themselves. I hope they are ticketed and shamed for the disrespectful antics they pull.

 

[100percent]

The entire point is you don't get to control every fence corner if you only own 50% or 25% of that space.

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Well, they are currently and have been since early settlement and railroad expansion in the 1800’s! It’s a cultural norm that we are up against and those are the most difficult to change!

Not disputing the entire point, at all, nor you! My point is what we are fighting against!

It’s just hard for a politician to argue, much less legislate, against the landowner point of view because the public (if given the opportunity) will brutally and consistently prove the landowner right in his concerns, without some sort of oversight which governments likely can’t or won’t afford…

Look at your next roadside park bathroom, for reference! Grocery carts in the parking area of your local shopping center? Public responsibility and accountability is on the downslope!

Knowing what we are up against, It would seem the solution here would be a different “request” that identifies those concerns and provides a level of control and accountability that incurs minimal costs associated. What about creating limited entry permits to these areas? The guy or party that draws the tag has that area for the season and clearly could be held accountable if something extraneous occurred, much like block management? That idea isn’t novel, as it is in play in several states but, I haven’t seen it mentioned in respect to corner crossing.

 

[100percent]

A large number of public land hunters are disgusting slobs. I hope they are ticketed and shamed for the disrespectful antics they pull. A large number of landowners ruthlessly hoard public land to themselves. I hope they are ticketed and shamed for the disrespectful antics they pull.

You digress but, I agree! . Who will ticket them? That’s a big part of the problem! Too few and far between to be effective—no money! What’s the old gun ownership saying “when you need them now, cops are just a minutes away”!!!

 

[StupidLightweight]

Not disputing the entire point, at all, nor you! My point is what we are fighting against!

It’s just hard for a politician to argue, much less legislate, against the landowner point of view because the public (if given the opportunity) will brutally and consistently prove the landowner right in his concerns, without some sort of oversight which governments likely can’t or won’t afford…

Landowner concerns are too often validated, but it still doesn’t give them sole usage of a shared public resource.

 

[100percent]

Landowner concerns are too often validated, but it still doesn’t give them sole usage of a shared public resource.

Agreed! See updated edit to post you quoted

 

[jkoehle1]

Director Clark and Lt Gov juras intrepretation is based on supreme court justice Brown's statement in the ruling.

The key part they are explicitly ignoring begins with "It may be added, however," - where access to those other sections was assumed.


Also below is part of the text of the unlawful enclosures act:
Seems like to me fwp and the state of MT will need luck on their side because the text simply isnt.

 

[dieselchessy]

I agree with folks that people suck. But I don’t see how that has any bearing on access to public land.
If the county road intersects public land then the public has access regardless if they suck or if the adjoining private land owner(s) disagree. So to should they have access to landlocked public lands.
The adjoining private land owner should have equal say in both cases. Which should be no say at all. It's not their land.

 

[MtnW]

Sure the general public can be slobs , but so can many of these greedy ranchers who are also slobs mismanaging our public lands. Not only are many of these Ranchers who are controlling thousands of acres of public land and the public’s wildlife as though it is their cash cow and their own private hunting preserve. Many of these ranchers are grossly over grazing these public lands they are controlling with little or no oversight by the government.

 

[mt terry d]

Corner crossing legality is merely an attempt to treat a symptom.

Focus. Deal with the problem.

If there's no general public access to a piece of public land then no one uses it.

Problem solved.

Next!

 

[One300wsm]

Sure the general public can be slobs , but so can many of these greedy ranchers who are also slobs mismanaging our public lands. Not only are many of these Ranchers who are controlling thousands of acres of public land and the public’s wildlife as though it is their cash cow and their own private hunting preserve. Many of these ranchers are grossly over grazing these public lands they are controlling with little or no oversight by the government.

You make some valid points also. I’m pretty sure the majority of us, if not all are on the same page. If it’s tax payers property “The Public” then tax payers “The Public” should have access to Public land, land locked or not.