Montana corner crossing lawsuit.

[Muleyczy]

I've never understood why corner crossing only applies to situations that involve public/private corners. Would the same trespassing law apply if it was two private owners with two parcels each but only joined at a four corner point. Could one private owner prevent the other from crossing at the center? Why the distinction of public (owned by the taxpayers)? Are taxpayer owned lands subservient to private, sure seems like it.

Valid point

 

[One300wsm]

 

[jmez]

MOGA is getting testy with the Outdoor Life writer that is exposing this. Seems they want to project that they stand with hunters on this.

 

[RyanT26]

MOGA is getting testy with the Outdoor Life writer that is exposing this. Seems they want to project that they stand with hunters on this.

I’m sure they do stand with the hunters. It’s just the ones that can afford or want to pay an outfitter to get them access to land locked or corner locked public land.

 

[mtwarden]

I know for a fact (and this goes back 25+ years) that outfitters were leasing up deeded property JUST because it accessed exclusive access to public land—absolutely nothing to do with the actual deeded land.

We had one outfitter (after folks started learning about a big block of BLM land that was accessible by a corner of BLM) that convinced the county commissioners to close a county road that accessed that corner

The upside of that story was that BLM eventually punched in their own road into that block

 

[AHayes111]

I know for a fact (and this goes back 25+ years) that outfitters were leasing up deeded property JUST because it accessed exclusive access to public land—absolutely nothing to do with the actual deeded land.

We had one outfitter (after folks started learning about a big block of BLM land that was accessible by a corner of BLM) that convinced the county commissioners to close a county road that accessed that corner

The upside of that story was that BLM eventually punched in their own road into that block

let me guess, Outfitter's last name started with a B and he is no longer outfitting, but leases the ranch to a hunting influencer.
That was an epic fail for the outfitter, Should have kept his mouth shut and let the few hunters that knew about that spot have at it. Instead he had to get all bent out of shape and by the time he was done he had a road through the middle of the ranch that is beat to dust during hunting season.

 

[mtwarden]

That's it

We had a dozen folks from our department testify at that county commissioner meeting, but it fell on deaf ears

 

[AHayes111]

That's it

We had a dozen folks from our department testify at that county commissioner meeting, but it fell on deaf ears

I don't blame the county for not wanting the road. In a county that has difficulty maintaining all the road it has, That one was probably not high on the priority list and would have taken a lot of money to bring it back into shape. Should have just turned over the western portion to the BLM. Better yet, the landowner should have worked on a trade that would have given the BLM the western part of the road.

 

[jmez]

Well, look at that. It only took about a week of Montana hunters blowing this issue up for Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks to suddenly decide corner crossing needs to be “front and center.” In a press release, FWP Director Christy Clark is now asking the Private Land/Public Wildlife committee to take up corner-to-corner public access at its June 1 and 2 meeting in Glasgow. That is not an accident. That is public pressure working. That is what happens when hunters stop complaining in private, start naming names, start exposing the money, the lobbyists, MOGA, the bad landowners, and the politicians, and make these people answer in public.

Now we cannot drop the ball. June 1 and 2 is when every hunter who cares about public land needs to show up, either in person or on Zoom. If you care about corner crossing, landlocked public land, and whether regular hunters can access land they already own, get on that meeting. Let them see thousands of hunters watching. Let them hear from the people they have ignored for too long. We have them on the ropes, but this is not over. This is where the posts, phone calls, messages, and public pressure turn into real action. Isn’t that right, Director Clark?

— Stephen Ziegler
Outdoor writer | Owner, DeLong Lures

Sent from my moto g power - 2025 using Tapatalk

 

[Lil dude]

I guess can MTwarden or someone explain why a hearing by FWP has any real bearing on the actual legalities of anything. Right now we have no law against corner crossing and simply a statement from DNRC director saying they consider it illegal but not backed by any law or even administrative rule. And prosecutors not yet bringing any charges ever. We’re actually not in a bad spot as is if someone were to corner cross. I guess we also have to differentiate between state and federal lands.

Better be careful what we wish for especially witn our legislature if it ever goes on the books officially. As MT law. I’d feel pretty comfortable crossing in the current state of affairs plus knowing how the 10th circuit fell. Our governor and legislature could easily pass a law against this in the next session.


Also of note if there is not a USGS corner pin then one really can’t legally corner cross. ONX is far from accurate enough to show a corner down to the nearest inch. There is a decent percent of corner pins not in around this state.

I know there a corners with structures built as well, such as large barrel style contraptions set over pins and would need a 10’ ladder to get over. Pretty sure that is illegal as there is an old law about blocking access to public lands…don’t know if that would apply to DNRC lands as well.

And finally I fully support MT private property laws but also back corner crossing. If you want to know how the average ranch landowner sees their property look at any large ranch real estate listing and chances are you’ll see 35,000 acres listed and only in the fine print will you see the deeded portion is only 5000 acres. The rest are simply leased from DNRC/BLM for grazing purposes. I always find that pretty outrageous that these ranches are sold in this capacity and that is how they are viewed whether they are landlocked or not.

 

[StupidLightweight]

If you want to know how the average ranch landowner sees their property look at any large ranch real estate listing and chances are you’ll see 35,000 acres listed and only in the fine print will you see the deeded portion is only 5000 acres. The rest are simply leased from DNRC/BLM for grazing purposes.

I agree with everything you said, but this in particular shows exactly how these ranchers feel about public land ownership. It's theirs.

 

[johnsd16]

I guess can MTwarden or someone explain why a hearing by FWP has any real bearing on the actual legalities of anything. Right now we have no law against corner crossing and simply a statement from DNRC director saying they consider it illegal but not backed by any law or even administrative rule. And prosecutors not yet bringing any charges ever. We’re actually not in a bad spot as is if someone were to corner cross. I guess we also have to differentiate between state and federal lands.

Better be careful what we wish for especially witn our legislature if it ever goes on the books officially. As MT law. I’d feel pretty comfortable crossing in the current state of affairs plus knowing how the 10th circuit fell. Our governor and legislature could easily pass a law against this in the next session.


Also of note if there is not a USGS corner pin then one really can’t legally corner cross. ONX is far from accurate enough to show a corner down to the nearest inch. There is a decent percent of corner pins not in around this state.

I know there a corners with structures built as well, such as large barrel style contraptions set over pins and would need a 10’ ladder to get over. Pretty sure that is illegal as there is an old law about blocking access to public lands…don’t know if that would apply to DNRC lands as well.

And finally I fully support MT private property laws but also back corner crossing. If you want to know how the average ranch landowner sees their property look at any large ranch real estate listing and chances are you’ll see 35,000 acres listed and only in the fine print will you see the deeded portion is only 5000 acres. The rest are simply leased from DNRC/BLM for grazing purposes. I always find that pretty outrageous that these ranches are sold in this capacity and that is how they are viewed whether they are landlocked or not.

Not to derail the main point but in the instance there is no pin or it is in question where you crossed the burden is on the prosecution to prove you didn’t cross at the corner not the other way around. Agree it makes it muddier but unless they can prove you were absolutely not at the corner (if there’s not pin how could they) not the other way around.

On FB it looked like Rack Junkies posted a link to the zoom meeting in Glasgow for June 1-2. Can we get a link here?

 

[Lil dude]

Not to derail the main point but in the instance there is no pin or it is in question where you crossed the burden is on the prosecution to prove you didn’t cross at the corner not the other way around. Agree it makes it muddier but unless they can prove you were absolutely not at the corner (if there’s not pin how could they) not the other way around.

On FB it looked like Rack Junkies posted a link to the zoom meeting in Glasgow for June 1-2. Can we get a link here?

Interesting take. Yes they’d have to prove where you crossed (trail cam) and then get a surveyor there to re monument (not gonna happen) then cross reference pic to survey and prosecute. So yes probably could get by that way. I still like to know I stepped over the pin. Ignorance of anything in court is never going to get you snywhere.

Reality is we are currently in a good spot especially if we have an overzealous county attorney and no appeals court and somehow a fairly liberal my Supreme Court.

 

[mtwarden]

I guess can MTwarden or someone explain why a hearing by FWP has any real bearing on the actual legalities of anything.

It would be beneficial for hunters if the Department said wardens won’t be enforcing corner crossing cases, but instead referring landowners to their county attorney.

Basically going back to what it was and had always been until recently.