Mexico sheep question

[wildwilderness]

Does GSCO and WSF recognize HF desert rams for a slam?

If not, why would anyone want to go on one?

If yes, then the Grand Slam now seems much less impressive

OP says 3/4 are fenced......

I don't think they do, but the definition of "Free Range" is loose- I am not sure of the time required for the ram to be out of the enclosure to be considered free range.... As in open the gate, ram walks out, gets shot and is considered free range?

People hunt HF for many reasons, its their choice and money. South Africa, Namibia, Texas thrive off of HF

From a rancher perspective letting a trophy ram out too soon, that could get killed by a mt. lion, get injured, run off to the neighbor's etc. is a business risk.

 

[HornPorn]

I don't think they do, but the definition of "Free Range" is loose- I am not sure of the time required for the ram to be out of the enclosure to be considered free range.... As in open the gate, ram walks out, gets shot and is considered free range?

People hunt HF for many reasons, its their choice and money. South Africa, Namibia, Texas thrive off of HF

From a rancher perspective letting a trophy ram out too soon, that could get killed by a mt. lion, get injured, run off to the neighbor's etc. is a business risk.

How many people posting up desert bighorns on here or on Instagram with a team of 5 flatbills are high fence?

If someone is going to shoot a caged animal, why go to Mexico or Africa to do it? You can do that in TX or FLA, or several other L48 states from what I hear

 

[HornPorn]

In regards to hunting desert sheep in Mexico..... 3/4 is fenced and the other 1/4 isn't so it's considered fair chase operation. Some have said they are all fenced, just larger areas that people just will not ever see the fence and know any different. Makes sense to me that they try and control what animals they can sell to harvest just wanted to see if any or none of that is true in Mexico.

Where did you get "3/4 is fenced" from?

 

[kybuck1]

Where did you get "3/4 is fenced" from?

So it was brought to my attention that some places will fence off "portions" of the operation to keep animals within the confines and have areas that animals do not go for one reason or another and leave that open. From that they can change the terminology to "free range" as the animals can "theoretically" come and go as they please. I have no personal experience with many operations it mainly guide talk.
My few thoughts on the sheep and fence is this and I appreciate the responses. First it sounds like a management success for the herd. Kudos for all involved. Secondly, its a business game and I get that. You invest in the sheep and have a ranch to sell hunts on. Maybe you have 5000 acres with a couple mountains type terrain on it. At roughly 50K a pop. You don't bait and the animals grew up there. They run from people, use the wind and terrain to their advantage, disappear for the entire season, non genetically modified. Biologist help you manage the herd. You theoretically have no advantage other than the actual border fence. I have no problem doing that hunt, whether they classify that for the slam or not...I don't care personally.
Now I personally would absolutely not shoot a ram that comes to a bait pile in a high fence setup, set in a blind over the only water source, will approach humans, or something of the sorts.
Some operations are free range and will have rams pinned down to a mountain or two that have never left since they were released years or days ago. You drive up, glass them the day after you arrive, spot and stalk, and shoot one.
Other free range areas you may hike miles and miles, set up camp, glass for days on end to find a sheep the last day and make a perfect stalk.
Lots of different scenarios and I guess what makes it all work is that each option is legal to do. You might sign up thinking you're getting one hunt and end up with something completely different. These sites are invaluable for information and references in picking the right hunt. In the end it's the personal hunt experience I think we are mostly shooting for and I think there are options for each in the Mexico Desert Sheep world that would make for a great experience.
Again, my personal opinion.

 

[S-3 ranch]

So it was brought to my attention that some places will fence off "portions" of the operation to keep animals within the confines and have areas that animals do not go for one reason or another and leave that open. From that they can change the terminology to "free range" as the animals can "theoretically" come and go as they please. I have no personal experience with many operations it mainly guide talk.
My few thoughts on the sheep and fence is this and I appreciate the responses. First it sounds like a management success for the herd. Kudos for all involved. Secondly, its a business game and I get that. You invest in the sheep and have a ranch to sell hunts on. Maybe you have 5000 acres with a couple mountains type terrain on it. At roughly 50K a pop. You don't bait and the animals grew up there. They run from people, use the wind and terrain to their advantage, disappear for the entire season, non genetically modified. Biologist help you manage the herd. You theoretically have no advantage other than the actual border fence. I have no problem doing that hunt, whether they classify that for the slam or not...I don't care personally.
Now I personally would absolutely not shoot a ram that comes to a bait pile in a high fence setup, set in a blind over the only water source, will approach humans, or something of the sorts.
Some operations are free range and will have rams pinned down to a mountain or two that have never left since they were released years or days ago. You drive up, glass them the day after you arrive, spot and stalk, and shoot one.
Other free range areas you may hike miles and miles, set up camp, glass for days on end to find a sheep the last day and make a perfect stalk.
Lots of different scenarios and I guess what makes it all work is that each option is legal to do. You might sign up thinking you're getting one hunt and end up with something completely different. These sites are invaluable for information and references in picking the right hunt. In the end it's the personal hunt experience I think we are mostly shooting for and I think there are options for each in the Mexico Desert Sheep world that would make for a great experience.
Again, my personal opinion.

The fencing on some are for brude stock , the fence is heavily controlled and kept predator free , once the carrying capacity is reached the extra breeding stock are released to Re establish traditional ranges that where disimated by
disease and over grazing, some are traded/ exchanged with the USA
to have genetic diversity

The Treasure of the Sierra del Carmen

A private company's effort to save wildlife-rich deserts and mountains on the Rio Grande gives Latin America its first designated wilderness

www.nwf.org

 

[Spiral Horn]

The issue with threads like these is they often start with repeated misinformation or rumors folks read on some other Internet forum - usually started there by other folks who were also just spitballing. This is often followed by piling-on without much further investigation.

Many thanks to S-3 for posting the article on Mexican private ranch Desert Sheep conservation efforts. Great illustration - and sheds light on how these efforts are often misinterpreted or spun.

I’ve been fortunate to have hunted on six continents. Hunting norms and tradition vary tremendously. We sometimes turn our noses up at some of what they enjoy doing, and they are often appalled at some of our hunting traditions (trust me).

If someone on Rokslide is sincerely looking to book a free range Desert Sheep Hunt in Mexico I’m certain there are a number of kind and generous folks here (with actual experience) willing to help them out with recommendations and tips. However, as more of this negative BS, rumor, innuendo and misinformation gets posted and reposted, less and less legitimately-experienced and knowledgeable people will be willing to enter and remain in the discussion.

Another effect - let’s see what happens to the next Rokslider who generously shares the story of their successful free-range Mexican Desert Sheep Hunt. If they immediately get peppered with challenges as to whether it was “free range”, we’ll see less and less first hand info posted from folks who’ve actually hunted there. That’s not helpful to any of us.

 

[kybuck1]

The issue with threads like these is they often start with repeated misinformation or rumors folks read on some other Internet forum - usually started there by other folks who were also just spitballing. This is often followed by piling-on without much further investigation - but why cloud up these issues with facts?

Many thanks to S-3 for posting the article on Mexican private ranch Desert Sheep conservation efforts. Great illustration - and sheds light on how these efforts are often misinterpreted or spun.

I’ve been fortunate to have hunted on six continents. Norms and tradition vary tremendously. We sometimes turn our noses up at some of what they enjoy doing, and they are often appalled at some of our hunting traditions (trust me).

If someone on Rokslide is sincerely looking to book a free range Desert Sheep Hunt in Mexico I’m certain there are a number of kind and generous folks here willing to help them out with recommendations and tips. However, as more of this negative BS, rumor, innuendo and misinformation gets posted and reposted, less and less legitimately-experienced and knowledgeable people will be willing to enter and remain in the discussion.

Another effect - let’s see what happens to the next Rokslider who generously shares the story of their successful free-range Mexican Desert Sheep Hunt. If they immediately get peppered with challenges as to whether it was “free range”, we’ll see less and less first hand info posted from folks who’ve actually hunted there. That’s not helpful to any of us.

Not sure if that was directed at my original post or not but let me be clear. There just might not be a lot of people out there with an occupation that allows a lot of freedom of finances or time to pursue some of what others can experience. I've personally had my share of bad outfitter experiences along with some good ones. I'm new to the sheep game so shelling out 50K plus for what may or may not be a good hunt experience is a big deal. Now for me I could care less if I can enter something into a book or be in some club for shooting an animal. However it's pretty obvious that there are some that would be irate spending that money to find out that they can't enter that animal. Im not trying to degrade any hunting operation nor spread negativity with my posts or comments if that is how it might be portrayed.
Point is that I think there are a ton of operations out there and all have profit margins on the agenda. As new to the sheep world I'm simply trying to weed through the fluff and have a good reference source of post for anyone else that may be in similar shoes for a future hunt. So if outfitters are spreading rumors trying to justify why their hunts are better, entered into score books, or cost 20K more than somewhere else I think it's good to know the truth. I think we all appreciate the factual information.
If someone shares a great story and pic of ram you'll never see me ask if it's truly free range or not--if I have learned anything from comments and research is that the definition of free range and the hunt experience is pretty loose in Mexico. Most importantly I don't care what makes someone happy hunting as long as it's legal to do so. A simple congratulations and glad you had a great time is really what we should all do.

 

[Spiral Horn]

Does GSCO and WSF recognize HF desert rams for a slam?

No. I just reconfirmed this with the GSCO record-keeping folks. They do not recognize HF Sheep entries. Even if someone slipped one by them and they later found out about it - it would be stricken.

 

[Spiral Horn]

Good question
I think only SCI likes high fence recording

Just to clarify = SCI DOES NOT accept HF trophies for Grand Slams (now called Milestone Awards) of North American Wild Sheep, North American 29 or most other cumulative awards for North American Species (Caribou, Moose, Elk, etc).

However, SCI tracks vastly more categories of hunting achievements not involving wild sheep or mountain game, many of them worldwide, some of which can include a limited number of estate taken species. An example of where SCI allows HF animals is in their Inner Circle for Introduced Animals of North America where the free range Aoudad from the Davis Mountains and the one taken from a Hill Country Game Ranch both count (although they will be clearly and correctly labeled as free-range or estate in the record book).

So, SCI really gets an undeserved bad rap here as they do record some estate-taken trophies and count them in limited achievement categories, but they are always clearly labeled as such and are NEVER counted toward prestigious awards such as the Grand Slam of North American Wild Sheep or North American 29.

 

[wildwilderness]

So it was brought to my attention that some places will fence off "portions" of the operation to keep animals within the confines and have areas that animals do not go for one reason or another and leave that open. From that they can change the terminology to "free range" as the animals can "theoretically" come and go as they please. I have no personal experience with many operations it mainly guide talk.
My few thoughts on the sheep and fence is this and I appreciate the responses. First it sounds like a management success for the herd. Kudos for all involved. Secondly, it’s a business game and I get that. You invest in the sheep and have a ranch to sell hunts on. Maybe you have 5000 acres with a couple mountains type terrain on it. At roughly 50K a pop. You don't bait and the animals grew up there. They run from people, use the wind and terrain to their advantage, disappear for the entire season, non genetically modified. Biologist help you manage the herd. You theoretically have no advantage other than the actual border fence. I have no problem doing that hunt, whether they classify that for the slam or not...I don't care personally.
Some operations are free range and will have rams pinned down to a mountain or two that have never left since they were released years or days ago. You drive up, glass them the day after you arrive, spot and stalk, and shoot one.
Other free range areas you may hike miles and miles, set up camp, glass for days on end to find a sheep the last day and make a perfect stalk.

In my limited experience- a couple trips to Sonora to hunt coues deer, I visited a couple different ranches and spoke to owners (I am fluent in Spanish so it helps though they were also educated in English as well)

Most of the partially fenced areas were to help control mule deer. They tend to wander more and some neighbors may be trigger happy. If a certain amount is unfenced then they still count as free range. Once again they could be pen raised and released though.

Most of the areas in Sonora are private, haven’t seen or heard of “public” hunting land there?

I visited a high end sheep breeding ranch and it was very efficient, and a passionate owner who worked hard to change laws and get sheep reintroduced 20-30 years ago.

The actual high fence area is relatively small compared to the 100,000 acres he owned. His brother/uncle had another 100,000 acres adjoining as well…

They ran completely free range and pen-released free range hunts. They had water improvements, minerals and feed spots on the free range areas.

Most of the excess rams were sold to other ranchers for diversity and a few releases (male and female) per Biologist instruction.

Based on how many free range sheep they had on the property the State would give them permits to hunt. They also control the High fence hunts as well per my understanding.

 

[S-3 ranch]

The fencing on some are for brude stock , the fence is heavily controlled and kept predator free , once the carrying capacity is reached the extra breeding stock are released to Re establish traditional ranges that where disimated by
disease and over grazing, some are traded/ exchanged with the USA
to have genetic diversity

The Treasure of the Sierra del Carmen

A private company's effort to save wildlife-rich deserts and mountains on the Rio Grande gives Latin America its first designated wilderness

www.nwf.org

Here is a success story of a new herd 20 years after reintroduction to a new state in Mexico , it’s hard to believe this is within driving distance from where I live in Texas viva

 

[kybuck1]

Here is a success story of a new heard 20 years after reintroduction to a new state in Mexico , it’s hard to believe this is within driving distance from where I live vivaView attachment 523103View attachment 523104View attachment 523105

Wow, very cool!!