Members opinions of the Winchester Mod. 70?

[Formidilosus]

I was wondering more why some liked liked the push feed over the CRF. I can understand that they may be little lighter and easier to work with for trueing. Me personally I will take the weight penalty to know that jamming and feeding issues are minimized. Just with "buck fever" alone I know of people having issues chambering a new round, let alone if you were hunting DG or Africa.

While I have a soft spot for pre64 M70’s and well done Mausers, certain enclosed push feed bolt actions are significantly more reliable in all conditions than any CRF bolt action.

 

[Doc Holliday]

certain enclosed push feed bolt actions are significantly more reliable

Which ones are those?

 

[Formidilosus]

Which ones are those?

Accuracy International, Sako TRG, Tikka T3 (and probably Sako S20 though I haven’t seen any test with it), Sauer STR, Barrett MRAD, etc.

CRF actions generally fail very quickly in ice, sand, and mud tests for military trials- not saying that CRF isn’t reliable enough for hunting, was just replying to forestryguy about why some might choose a PF over CRF due to the belief that CRF is more reliable. They are not when both are designed correctly. The issue is open top actions whether Remington or customs are not designed correctly.

 

[QuackAttack]

While I have a soft spot for pre64 M70’s and well done Mausers, certain enclosed push feed bolt actions are significantly more reliable in all conditions than any CRF bolt action.

I’m not disagreeing…and there are huge variables here like cartridge size, conditions, bolt speed….but can you explain?

I’ve been issued a 700 in the form of an M 24…and it was fine, but I’ve had 700s that ejected live rounds poorly and would fail to eject if cycled too quickly. They seem better suited to smaller, lighter rounds.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I hate it when I'm trying to shoot upside down and the bullet falls out of my gun.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’m not disagreeing…and there are huge variables here like cartridge size, conditions, bolt speed….but can you explain?

I’ve been issued a 700 in the form of an M 24…and it was fine, but I’ve had 700s that ejected live rounds poorly and would fail to eject if cycled too quickly. They seem better suited to smaller, lighter rounds.

Well if you used the M24, I’m going to presume y’all had the SOP’s of carrying lighter fluid to flush the trigger, and bagged the rifles/covered them in dust/sand when traveling. I’ll just be blunt- objectively Remington M700’s are poor actions for field use. The vast majority of modern custom versions are only slightly better.

 

[happycamper]

A model 70 will never be the lightest or most affordable or most accurate rifle available. Those are it's weaknesses, but if you find one that carries well and shoots good, I suggest you keep it. When I am fortunate enough to be rifle hunting a fairly long hike, ride, float or flight from civilization you can bet I'm carrying a M70 or other Mauser clone. Why?

Dependability and serviceability.

The rifle will do it's part but sometimes I don't do my part...shit happens...and I dunk, freeze or foul it up somehow, but if I have a dime or a knife or a screwdriver I can disassemble the M70 and be back in business without making a trip back to town.

Once upon a time a friends rifle would drop the firing pin every time the bolt was closed. The trigger sear was so gunked up it wouldn't reset. That ended his hunt and the gun went back to the factory.

With a M70 you take it out of the stock, wipe the trigger parts off with your t-shirt and you're back in the game. If the point of failure isn't the trigger but rather the firing pin, well no problem if you're carrying a M70. That middle notch on the safety lever that makes it safe to cycle the action without taking the gun off of "safe" also enables you to field strip the bolt without tools. I can field strip a Remington M700 bolt without tools but at the risk of letting fly with pins and springs who knows where...not a good thing to have happen on the side of a mountain.

I've never had to cycle and shoot my M70 while hanging upside down but I'm still a big fan of CRF because the ejector and extractor are simple, strong and practically foolproof. Can't say that for the extractor or plunger ejector on some other actions.

And back to that three position M70 safety. I can find it and take the gun off safe whenever I want but I've never fallen or been in heavy brush and looked down to discover the safety lever wasn't where I'd left it. What i really like is that if the lever is in the safe position, the bolt handle is staying in the down and closed position. On another trip, another friend was carrying another brand of rifle in a "system" that attaches the rifle to the side of a backpack. After a long and brutal trek through brush we stopped to shed our packs and glass. He looked at his rifle and discovered the bolt was gone. We never did find it.

He eventually purchased a new bolt for that rifle but I felt he should have just cut his losses and bought a M70.

 

[Kobuk]

I have a question about accuracy issues. I bought my son a beautiful model 70 in 338WM for his graduation present. Its blued with wood stock. He picked the rifle out and loves it. The problem we are having is it isn't very accurate. Aren't new to rifles and went through all of the normal things like shooting a bunch of different ammo to see what it likes, getting some sounds down the barrel to get it to settle in. We have taken the action out of the stock to make sure it is torqued correctly. He has even swapped out the scope and rings to see if they were the problem. I'm stumped. Our only other option is sending it back to winchester to see if they can figure it out. Seems very odd and I haven't ever had such an issue with a rifle. If it was some clunker, I might see it but we shouldn't have to deal with this on this rifle. Has anyone experienced this and send a rifle back to winchester?

 

[SDHNTR]

For me, it just makes for a better looking rifle. I don’t want a useless piece of metal on the side of my bolt when it doesn’t need to be there.

Useless? OMG, I have never heard such blasphemy!

 

[SDHNTR]

OP, you’ve obviously gotten the picture by now, but the model 70 is simply the finest functioning hunting action in a production rifle today. You will find preference for the pre-64 models, of course, and preference for the New Haven Connecticut built Classic models. These were made in America, arguably better quality fit and finish, and a more reliable, open trigger. In terms of design for a hunting rifle, no other action even comes close. Outside of a Mauser obviously, which it was modeled after.

I could do without a lot of my rifles, even some of the highest end Customs but I will never give up my models 70s. They are special.

 

[Grumman]

While I have a soft spot for pre64 M70’s and well done Mausers, certain enclosed push feed bolt actions are significantly more reliable in all conditions than any CRF bolt action.

Form I’m happy to see you post that you do like Model 70’s. I’ve been wanting to ask you of your thoughts around them but was afraid of your answer. They are my favorite rifles but I also recognize the limitations that you listed.


Now I’m off to line up the scope on a new Tikka 223 with 6x SWFA. I wish I could get a fast twist Model 70 in 223.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Formidilosus]

Form I’m happy to see you post that you do like Model 70’s. I’ve been wanting to ask you of your thoughts around them but was afraid of your answer. They are my favorite rifles but I also recognize the limitations that you listed.

Oh yeah. People mistake what I write about objective attributes for what I “like”. I like Pre 64’s, H&H, Griffin and Howe, Rigby’s, etc. all with older Leupold, Weaver steel tube, or classic European scopes. The problem is that those things are not even close to objectively as good in use as modern options.

I do not let my emotions bias me.

 

[SDHNTR]

Designwise, it’s far superior to any push feed I’m aware of in a hunting application. Three position safety. Lockable bolt. Bolt release in the proper place. Magazine floorplate release outside the trigger guard. Easy, tool less, field strippable bolt and firing pin. Fixed ejector, with no moving parts. I suppose you could also throw in the flat bottomed receiver and fixed recoil lug as an advantage also. And of course, the crown jewel, that big claw extractor that grabs a cartridge out of the magazine on the way in, making it nearly impossible to jam, and provides a more positive grip on a stuck case on the way out. There is a reason why you do not see DG guides toting push feeds of any sort.

You might be able to make some argument for a push feed based on accuracy, but yet I have three model 70s that will all shoot under half Moa and a few more that will all easily shoot under one MOA. Functionally however, they simply can’t be beat.

 

[QuackAttack]

Well if you used the M24, I’m going to presume y’all had the SOP’s of carrying lighter fluid to flush the trigger, and bagged the rifles/covered them in dust/sand when traveling. I’ll just be blunt- objectively Remington M700’s are poor actions for field use. The vast majority of modern custom versions are only slightly better.

The M24 doesn’t use a standard 700 trigger, if I remember correctly. It was decent, overall…for a rifle specd in the 80s and not really upgraded much. It was reliable and simple, no real issues beyond the crappy stock breaking, sling studs pulling out, and so on. I wouldn’t buy one…as they are super outdated, but the 700 was able to get it done.

I bought a 700 when I got home and it was a total POS.


I want an AI but it’s hard to justify. Additionally, I’ve seen plenty of AIs with problems, mostly primer flow and gas cutting on the bolt face in high pressure calibers. Not a show stopper.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Useless? OMG, I have never heard such truth!

 

[Formidilosus]

The M24 doesn’t use a standard 700 trigger, if I remember correctly.

No, they were not commercial triggers, but they were the same design and suffered all the issues that commercial ones did, albeit at a lower rate. The M24 was an 80’s version of a sporting rifle, and as far Islas that type goes- was decent and probably a better issues SWS than the M40 iterations. However, purpose built sniper rifle it was not, and neither were or are any of the 700 based systems. They are a relatively cheap sporting rifle in the case of Remingtons, and in the case of the MK13 Mod 7 a shoehorned bench rest action.

I want an AI but it’s hard to justify. Additionally, I’ve seen plenty of AIs with problems, mostly primer flow and gas cutting on the bolt face in high pressure calibers. Not a show stopper.

That has been corrected with smaller FP holes.

 

[SDHNTR]

I’ll just be blunt- objectively Remington M700’s are poor actions for field use.

This! Especially when there are so many better alternatives, push feed and CRF both. If people truly understood the design disadvantages of the 700, and understood the superiority of alternatives, they’d never buy one. But, people like to buy affordable guns off the rack at Wallyworld, and just like them to go bang and see stuff fall over. Very few consumers think beyond those basic elements.

 

[SDHNTR]

Haha, well played I must say.

 

[QuackAttack]

This! Especially when there are so many better alternatives, push feed and CRF notwithstanding. If people truly understood the design disadvantages of the 700, and understood the superiority of alternatives, they’d never buy one. But, people like to buy affordable guns off the rack at Wallyworld, and just like them to go bang and see stuff fall over. Very few consumers think beyond those basic elements.

From an engineering standpoint, round actions have real advantages. They are easy to manufacture and heat treat evenly. It’s simple to true/square and get all of the threads concentric to the bore. It’s very strong and seals well in the event of a case failure. It self centres in a V block style chassis, making bedding largely irrelevant. Headspace can easily be adjusted using recoil lug thickness, so chambering is simple.


In execution, Remington does it poorly…but there are many good 700 clones. They will never have the positives of a fixed ejector, CRF, or safety mounted on the bolt…but they can be very good.

 

[Formidilosus]

Designwise, it’s far superior to any push feed I’m aware of in a hunting application. Three position safety.

PF’s have that.

Lockable bolt.

PF’s have that.

Bolt release in the proper place.

PF’s have that.

Magazine floorplate release outside the trigger guard.

PF’s have that.

Easy, tool less, field strippable bolt and firing pin.

PF’s have that.

Fixed ejector, with no moving parts.

PF’s have that.

I suppose you could also throw in the flat bottomed receiver and fixed recoil lug as an advantage also.

PF’s have that.

And of course, the crown jewel, that big claw extractor that grabs a cartridge out of the magazine on the way in, making it nearly impossible to jam, and provides a more positive grip on a stuck case on the way out. There is a reason why you do not see DG guides toting push feeds of any sort.

Only if it is timed and fitted correctly, which most are not, and only if debris doesn’t get in the system- because that big open extractor is extremely susceptible to getting locked up with ice/snow and/or mud.
The DG guide piece is a non sequitur- that community is very traditional, and are not exactly at the forefront of testing and experimentation. A much better view is that not a single CRF has passed legitimate military reliability MRBS/MRBF in the last 30 years- and they have been tried. The last public one should have been an outright slam dunk for CRF if they were better- the Canadian Ranger rifle trial- which Sako/Tikka won. There have been others.

You might be able to make some argument for a push feed based on accuracy, but yet I have three model 70s that will all shoot under half Moa and a few more that will all easily shoot under one MOA. Functionally however, they simply can’t be beat.

Do you know this from actual legitimate testing against the rifles that I posted? Or by heresy and lore?