Mandatory Military Service

[307]

I'll take that as a no.

Anyway, interesting thought experiment that will obviously never happen. I fully expect that this nation will implode and require dramatic rebirth within the next 100 years. Maybe then a more sensible structure can be established.

 

[Jpsmith1]

As someone who did that job, I agree completely.

The principle of “one man, one vote” and the equality of individuals before the law, which the Greeks called isonomia, is a foundational part of our republic.

I’m really sick of the “some animals are more equal than others” mentality. It’s pernicious and I think it’s only put forward by those who think they are superior. But if they didn’t count themselves in the superior class, they’d howl like demons at the concept.

I think it also has to do with the fact that we've spent a generation throwing bodies into a meat grinder and had to encourage the children of the men who were ground up to step up.

We have spent the last 25 years effectively enculturating this into the young men particularly. Sign on the line and you're better than they are.


The jingoism is astounding.

To your last point, I think that, if the folks who went to college and earned advanced degrees suggested that they contribute much more to society and should be the only ones allowed to vote that you're right, the howls of indignation would be deafening.

Can you show me in the Constitution where each individual is granted the right to vote? Keeping in mind that simply was not how the government of the US functioned for at least the first 100+ years.

I mean, I can show you where a certain class of people were only worth 3/5th of a whole human, so maybe this isn't the absolute best metric to use. And, I mean, we even had to amend it to add free speech and guns and protections against torture.

I mean, 250 years ago, as you mentioned, we had a situation where ONLY a specific class of people could vote. As a society, we have seen fit to expand that to, basically, all adults. Stepping backwards is a dangerous thing and is rarely seen favorably by the future.

 

[Jpsmith1]

I'll take that as a no.

Anyway, interesting thought experiment that will obviously never happen. I fully expect that this nation will implode and require dramatic rebirth within the next 100 years. Maybe then a more sensible structure can be established.

That is accurate.

I do not support a tiered society where some are "more equal" than others.


I could argue pretty eloquently that we ALREADY HAVE a society that is trending that way, but the "more equal" tends to be people who have enough money to rig the system in their favor vs those who don't.

 

[ThorM465]

A "better, stronger America" by what metric?

Got any evidence or just "vibes"?

Living in a country with a dual standard for citizenship sounds less and less like a place I would want to live.

Hard pass.

The evidence is that universal enfranchisement has proven to be a disaster. When you make a change that results in disaster, the only sane thing is to revert back to previous settings. Or at least something much closer.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal"

We're created equal by God, with certain Rights. That's true. We're not equal when it comes to deciding how much of our time and resources the state takes or when we should send our sons to die in war. At least we shouldn't be.

 

[Jpsmith1]

The evidence is that universal enfranchisement has proven to be a disaster. When you make a change that results in disaster, the only sane thing is to revert back to previous settings. Or at least something much closer.



We're created equal by God, with certain Rights. That's true. We're not equal when it comes to deciding how much of our time and resources the state takes or when we should send our sons to die in war. At least we shouldn't be.

So you're "evidence" is vibes.

That tracks.

 

[307]

I do not support a tiered society where some are "more equal" than others.

Well then you should definitely NOT open your eyes and look clearly at the world in which you currently live.

 

[Jpsmith1]

Well then you should definitely NOT open your eyes and look clearly at the world in which you currently live.

Clipping the part where I SAID THAT is kind of disingenuous.

Lmao

 

[307]

So your ideal of "equal society" has already been proven a farce. It is what it is.

 

[ThorM465]

As someone who did that job, I agree completely.

The principle of “one man, one vote” and the equality of individuals before the law, which the Greeks called isonomia, is a foundational part of our republic.

I’m really sick of the “some animals are more equal than others” mentality. It’s pernicious and I think it’s only put forward by those who think they are superior. But if they didn’t count themselves in the superior class, they’d howl like demons at the concept.

This is categorically and patently false. The Founders detested democracy and implemented only where it was absolutely the right call. I.e., the House of Representatives. The Electoral College is evidence of this.

I'm a staunch believer in the words written by Jefferson in the Deceleration of Independence. I believe the law should treat us all equally. However, equality does not exist in nature and I'm tired of the delusional idea that it does. I'm tired of elites who never served and shelter there children trying to send my sons to die in foreign wars. I'm tired of eaters voting to take more of my time and resources while providing no value to society. I'm tired of worrying about my Wife and Children, because the high trust society we grew up in is gone.

I’m sorry, friend. This is the world we made in 1776. A world where some rube with shit on his boots and a fifth grade understanding of the world has the same vote as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, or James Madison. That was obvious to everyone paying attention by 1790, at the latest.

Our country hasn’t always lived up to the lofty promises in the Declaration, but it is always our touchstone and moral compass. Whenever we have deviated from its principles, it has turned out poorly for us.

If you don’t like people being ignorant, then get out there and lead them.

This was never true during the life of our Founders. None of them could have envisioned women having an equal vote, let alone some 70 IQ homeless drug addict.

You cannot overcome a sub 83 IQ. The Army tried and with every incentive to find the contrary determined that it wasn't possible.

It’s there in the Constitution and the first fifteen amendments. It’s in the Federalist papers, the Anti-Federalist papers, congressional debates, court opinions, etc. The principles were so obvious that people didn’t initially write them down.

It's not in the original Constitution or the Federalist Papers. If you have found it somewhere meaningful please cite it, because that's news to me.

 

[Jpsmith1]

So your ideal of "equal society" has already been proven a farce. It is what it is.

And you're welcome to that opinion just as I, at least until you get your way, am allowed to hold mine.

Nobody has provided anything beyond vibes to show how society is a "farce"

 

[ThorM465]

To your last point, I think that, if the folks who went to college and earned advanced degrees suggested that they contribute much more to society and should be the only ones allowed to vote that you're right, the howls of indignation would be deafening.

Exactly who here made that argument? This would be a horrible idea. 90% of advanced degrees are useless midwit dribble at best. The only reason they ever meant something was because it was once only elites who got them, which to say was only those with a 120+ IQ.

I mean, 250 years ago, as you mentioned, we had a situation where ONLY a specific class of people could vote. As a society, we have seen fit to expand that to, basically, all adults. Stepping backwards is a dangerous thing and is rarely seen favorably by the future.

Now this is vibes, because it's patently not true. The only reason we are where we are today is because society periodically has reset itself.

Progress for the sake of progress is dangerous and rarely has good results.

That is accurate.

I do not support a tiered society where some are "more equal" than others.

I could argue pretty eloquently that we ALREADY HAVE a society that is trending that way, but the "more equal" tends to be people who have enough money to rig the system in their favor vs those who don't.

You live in a tiered society, e.g., Epstein class. Society has always had tiers. The question isn't should we, the only question is how we should structure it.

 

[307]

Lol

Look around.

Politicians are bought and sold. Our tax system is being raped by the billionaire class. Our entitlements are pillaged daily and will soon implode under their own weight. We are about 40 Trillion in debt and spend about 1 Trillion per year to pay the interest on said debt, which is nearly the largest expenditure of our government, sitting between one entitlement (Social Security) and another (Medicare). We sold our souls (and economy, and national security) to China so the rich could get richer and we seem to really struggle with basic concepts like “what is a woman”…

Yeah, it's going great...

Our biggest "bright spot" is the ever increasing stock market which is so disconnected from the reality of the US economy that it's approaching "fairy tale" status.

 

[average]

Lol

Look around.

Politicians are bought and sold. Our tax system raped by the billionaire class. Our entitlements are pillaged daily and will soon implode under their own weight. We are about 40 Trillion in debt and spend about 1 Trillion per year to pay the interest on said debt, which is nearly the largest expenditure of our government, sitting between one entitlement (Social Security) and another (Medicare). We sold our souls (and economy) so the rich could get richer and we seem to really struggle with basic concepts like “what is a woman”…

Yeah, it's going great...

Our biggest "bright spot" is the ever increasing stock market which is so disconnected from the reality of the US economy that it's approaching "fairy tale" status.

How do these thoughts justify giving them more bodies? The more you two post the worse the argument for mandatory service looks

 

[307]

How do these thoughts justify giving them more bodies? The more you two post the worse the argument for mandatory service looks

Our current system got us into this mess. We need to fix the people before we can fix the government.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Yes, a person who signed their name on the line and served in the US Military has more "skin in the game" than those who did not.

It's a job. You got paid for it and got some solid benefits. Some of which will follow you for life. Do you get upset when a cashier doesn't thank you for your service on Veteran's day?

It's not the only category of people who might deserve to have a louder voice in determining the future, but it's certainly one of them.

People with young children have more skin in the game than people whose children are no longer their dependents. And at what age do you think people should no longer have the right to vote? It stands to reason that elderly people have a lot less skin in the game since they won't be around long enough to see the consequences of a lot of US policy. What's your age cutoff where people don't get to vote anymore?

A good portion of this nations citizens are freeloaders with a room temp IQ and minimal ethical standards.

But the people who *checks notes* blew up 150 elementary school girls in the first strike package we did in the Iran war are of superior moral character? No room temp IQ and minimal ethical standards in the military? Just a bunch of megamind saints walking around?

 

[average]

Our current system got us into this mess. We need to fix the people before we can fix the government.

There may be something to that. I agree a cultural shift is needed. We probably completely disagree on the shift. Mandatory service gives the government more power when our current culture has no intention of holding politicians accountable. I guess I can humor the idea that when the government abuses this new power we'd have some massive uprising to resolve things but I'm not bloodthirsty enough to jump to that as a reasonable outcome in a hypothetical that will never happen

 

[KurtR]

I don’t know half the people I went to basic with read at a 5 th grade level and were dumber than a box of rocks. Those were the guys shooting 155 howitzers over peoples heads.

A bunch had waivers to get in because they committed crimes . To think that military service in some way makes some one more worthy to vote is laughable.

 

[307]

I don’t know half the people I went to basic with read at a 5 th grade level and were dumber than a box of rocks. Those were the guys shooting 155 howitzers over peoples heads.

A bunch had waivers to get in because they committed crimes . To think that military service in some way makes some one more worthy to vote is laughable.

I don't think anybody is using military service as a qualification due to the intelligence level of those who serve.

The justification would be that those who serve in the military (hopefully) have a better understanding of the consequences of politics and political decisions, aka "more skin in the game".

 

[307]

People with young children have more skin in the game than people whose children are no longer their dependents. And at what age do you think people should no longer have the right to vote? It stands to reason that elderly people have a lot less skin in the game since they won't be around long enough to see the consequences of a lot of US policy. What's your age cutoff where people don't get to vote anymore?

Agree.
80.
Agree.
You asked this 2 sentences ago.

But the people who *checks notes* blew up 150 elementary school girls in the first strike package we did in the Iran war are of superior moral character? No room temp IQ and minimal ethical standards in the military? Just a bunch of megamind saints walking around?

Innocent civilians dying in war is terrible. War fighters should take great caution to avoid it whenever possible. But, it will happen and we must accept that it is a terrible part of war and not be paralyzed by it.

 

[long hunter]

Don’t want your schools and infrastructure demolished don’t do dumb shit.Wait till the wolf comes knocking on your door step then complain about collateral damages.