Machine based strength training

[3325]

Who here has experienced success with machine based strength training?

By success, I mean consistent long term strength gains, as measured on the machines, that you believe had a positive impact on physical capacity and performance, preferably as it relates to backcountry hunting and load carrying, but I’d be interested in knowing about how it impacted other outdoor pursuits as well (Wew! Run on sentence.).

Two things that I’m not asking about: your performance on “the lifts” and your “gainz, bro,” except as defined by my definition of success above.

 

[Coach Chris]

Machine based training is excellent for hypertrophy and increasing contractile force of isolated movement patterns.
It's not awesome for building systemic strength and work capacity.
As far as building specific fitness for backcountry hunting goes you're going to get better GPP results from compound lifts and odd object/strongman style training.
Of course SPP for backcountry travel is hiking and rucking.

 

[3325]

Machine based training is excellent for hypertrophy and increasing contractile force of isolated movement patterns.
It's not awesome for building systemic strength and work capacity.
As far as building specific fitness for backcountry hunting goes you're going to get better GPP results from compound lifts and odd object/strongman style training.
Of course SPP for backcountry travel is hiking and rucking.

Thanks for your perspective. Like most of us, I’ve toyed with machine training but never been dedicated to it. I decided to include it today, but more as a finisher.

Example: Today was an upper body session. For GPP, the meat and potatoes of it was a 15 minute density block alternating dips with rope pull-ups for sets of 4 and 3. After the density block I went through some machine exercises, mostly single joint, for 1x20.

 

[Maverick1]

Who here has experienced success with machine based strength training?

By success, I mean consistent long term strength gains, as measured on the machines, that you believe had a positive impact on physical capacity and performance, preferably as it relates to backcountry hunting and load carrying, but I’d be interested in knowing about how it impacted other outdoor pursuits as well (Wew! Run on sentence.).

Two things that I’m not asking about: your performance on “the lifts” and your “gainz, bro,” except as defined by my definition of success above.

I have not. All of my strength gains have come from free weights. And that’s because that’s what I use on a regular and consistent basis.

The only machines I use at this point for resistance training are the leg curl and lat pull down.

Outside of those, the other machines that I use on a regular basis are the rower, stairclimber, bicycle trainer, and treadmill. While I would say each of them assists in my performance in the back country for hunting and load carrying, they are not strength building devices as you have defined it.

 

[Poser]

Thanks for your perspective. Like most of us, I’ve toyed with machine training but never been dedicated to it. I decided to include it today, but more as a finisher.

Example: Today was an upper body session. For GPP, the meat and potatoes of it was a 15 minute density block alternating dips with rope pull-ups for sets of 4 and 3. After the density block I went through some machine exercises, mostly single joint, for 1x20.

I think you could present the argument that some assistance/supplemental machine work (that is thoughtfully programmed for an intermediate+ lifter) may improve your compound lifts and thus improve your perceived performance long term. That being said, if someone comes on here and starts talking about how they nothing but quad extensions, hamstrings curls and Nautilus presses to prepare for their DIY OTC public land hunt and that they "had no problems in the mountains", then they are full of shit.

You could make the case for some lat pull downs if you can't do pullups/chinups.

You can definitely create some additional muscle stretch by manipulating the angles on machines, but, I'm having a difficult time coming up with anything other bicep curls, tricep extensions, pectoral and shoulder exercises for this example. I suppose you could consider cable rows, but its difficult to see how that would benefit performance more than barbell or dumbbell rows (or deadlifts for that matter). I'll throw in a few weeks worth of various tricep extensions on the cable machine every now and then, but I don't anticipate that improving my performance on anything beyond the bench press. Of course, bigg bench press = stronger upper body = ability to support my load on the body = carrying more weight more safely, but, if you're to the point that you need tricep assistance to further drive your bench press, you're already beyond the realm of improving your performance in the mountains.

Machines are good for hypertrophy of isolated muscles, but from a mountain performance standpoint, its "all show and no go" Will it negatively impact you? probably not. Is it better than nothing? yes. Is it the most effective use of your training time and energy if your main goal is mountain performance? unlikely.

Now, some people just want to be jacked and happen to also like to go hunting. If that's you, knock yourself out. I personally am stronger than I need to be to effectively go hunting, but I place some amount of value on being strong and also happen to go hunting. While I'll argue that strength is super beneficial for your long term health and ability to do difficult things, I don't know if there exists a convincing argument that machine based training is the best way to increase your real world performance.

 

[180ls1]

Generally speaking, its better at targeting specific muscles while not being as tough on your nervous system.

If the goal is to be a mountain monster. I would ruck, free weight train and then add machines/isolation to address targeted groups that need special attention.

 

[JustABritCrazy]

I pretty much use machines exclusively. I’m basically into maintaining my physical fitness, not building muscle. I could probably increase my training weight by 10 to 15 pounds if I really put my mine to it. At 63 my days of getting ripped are in the rear view mirror. Plus I just don’t trust working out with free weights by myself. That said I can hump hills with a 20 to 25 pounds of gear for 6 or 7 miles daily. Still do western fire as a FOBS so that is the main target I train towards. Plus I’m still marking and cruising timber on occasion which are 4 to 5 mile days on average. Last rifle season covered 67 miles over 9 days. Difference is I’m dragging out a whitetail, not trying to pack out an elkI. I feel my system is working for where I’m at in life.

 

[Watrdawg]

I'm 60 and make use of machines for certain types of body work. I don't do flat or incline bench anymore due to tearing a pec 10 years ago. Instead I'll use flat, incline and decline machines. I also use them for pull-downs and shoulder cable work. I do mix in dumbbell work also. The best thing I can say about machines is that they are great for reducing injury risk. As far as using machine work for overall fitness then like anything concentrating on one exercise regiment period it would be a poor choice. I do a mix of crossfit, regular strength training and then rucking/cardio work as my training regiment.

 

[JustABritCrazy]

The weight training with machines is for about an hour 2-3 days a week. Use a total of 15 different exercise machines with 26 reps per exercise. Either two sets 15 and 11 reps or three sets of 12,8 and 6 reps. The abdominal machines are 40 reps. Also spend half hour before and after weights on the elliptical for around 6.5 to 7 miles total. That’s the gym time. Also cut, split with a maul and then move around 4 cords of firewood every year. Scout and shed hunt for deer and just hike in the woods several times a month for an average of 5 to 6 miles per hike. Need to add more time on a bike and walking with a weight vest to the routine. Plus get off my “see” food diet. Would like to drop 10 to 15 pounds. Know what I neeed to do, like my, Mt Dew, potatoe chips and Reese bars to much. Doctor says I’m in better shape than 95% of her patients my age so I guess it’s working.

 

[Speaks]

Machines can be useful and have a place. I have gotten real world strength gains from them. What you dont get is any of the additional stability benefits and neuro benefits that you get with free weights. I think this is always a disadvantage but particularly with the type of gains that will help you with back country performance.

 

[TaperPin]

Having grown up from junior high on with well equipped gyms with primarily machines the distinction between them and free weights seems rather small. I can’t think of anyone on any of the fire crews over a ten year period, or any hiking or hunting buddy since, that was superior because they used free weights in the off season. City kids with big muscles, but with zero muscle memory and weird deficits or imbalances from a lack of humping hills have what we jokingly referred to as beach muscles, but they come around quickly. Sure the stabilizing muscles are important, but it’s much much more important to get the major muscles toughened up.

Even fire fighting, when I began at 18 there was a common belief that no resistance training existed to duplicate handline digging. By that time I had 7 years on a universal machine, was pretty stout, and knew there was nothing magical about muscles involved in being a dirt scraper. A few years later when I was running a crew, we cut the handle off an old Polaski, used three pulleys and some 3/16” coated cable with a hanging 5 gallon bucket partially filled with sand for resistance, and by varying the angle of the handle, amount and type of body movement, we produced some tough guys well ahead of other crews who wait until they can actually get up in the mountains.

There are so many movements and variations that be done on a nice smooth set of high and low cables, if free weight guys aren’t using them, they are missing out.

Tough hams, quads, and calf’s can all be had well enough on machines, supplemented with normal stair climbers and jogging - like I said earlier, I’ve never worked or hiked alongside a free weight guy who had a noticeable advantage. The mountain beasts that stand out are ultramarathon trail runners who never set foot in the gym.

What I’ve always enjoyed about fire crews or hiking clubs, there’s no excuses and at the end of a long day it’s obvious who has their act together and who doesn’t. Lol

 

[3325]

Having grown up from junior high on with well equipped gyms with primarily machines the distinction between them and free weights seems rather small. I can’t think of anyone on any of the fire crews over a ten year period, or any hiking or hunting buddy since, that was superior because they used free weights in the off season.

I’ve heard this before, but I haven’t heard it often.

I heard it from a former collegiate wrestler and longtime BJJ practitioner named Steve Maxwell. He says he was into Nautilus early on and experienced success with it, both in his personal wrestling performance and in training clients. Maxwell says he became enamored with barbell movements and things like kettlebells and clubs for a lot of years but has since circled back and believes machines are a good way to go. Maxwell is in his 70s now but can still be found on the internet.

The other person who advocated it was a Special Forces Master Sergeant who became a PT after retirement. He advocated high repetition circuit training, often using machines like Bowflex and Soloflex, and rucking to get ready for Special Forces selection. He’s since passed from cancer.

Those viewpoints seem counterintuitive, and certainly go against conventional wisdom, but both those men do seem to have strong BTDT credentials. So, am I to believe they were a success in spite of their machine-based training and not because of it? Of course, I believe it has to be considered, that in addition to using machine-based training for their GPP, the wrestler practiced wrestling, and the Green Beret practiced rucking. So, all their success can't be attributed to their machine-based training. Some of it has to be Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands.

For now, as mentioned, I intend to keep adding some machine movements for a single set at the end of a workout, but I don’t intend to rely on machines.

 

[JustABritCrazy]

Having grown up from junior high on with well equipped gyms with primarily machines the distinction between them and free weights seems rather small. I can’t think of anyone on any of the fire crews over a ten year period, or any hiking or hunting buddy since, that was superior because they used free weights in the off season. City kids with big muscles, but with zero muscle memory and weird deficits or imbalances from a lack of humping hills have what we jokingly referred to as beach muscles, but they come around quickly. Sure the stabilizing muscles are important, but it’s much much more important to get the major muscles toughened up.

Even fire fighting, when I began at 18 there was a common belief that no resistance training existed to duplicate handline digging. By that time I had 7 years on a universal machine, was pretty stout, and knew there was nothing magical about muscles involved in being a dirt scraper. A few years later when I was running a crew, we cut the handle off an old Polaski, used three pulleys and some 3/16” coated cable with a hanging 5 gallon bucket partially filled with sand for resistance, and by varying the angle of the handle, amount and type of body movement, we produced some tough guys well ahead of other crews who wait until they can actually get up in the mountains.

There are so many movements and variations that be done on a nice smooth set of high and low cables, if free weight guys aren’t using them, they are missing out.

Tough hams, quads, and calf’s can all be had well enough on machines, supplemented with normal stair climbers and jogging - like I said earlier, I’ve never worked or hiked alongside a free weight guy who had a noticeable advantage. The mountain beasts that stand out are ultramarathon trail runners who never set foot in the gym.

What I’ve always enjoyed about fire crews or hiking clubs, there’s no excuses and at the end of a long day it’s obvious who has their act together and who doesn’t. Lol

Have similar experience. Had a ripped rock solid guy on one of my hand crews. Things were starting to get a little hincky and I was standing back and calculating when to pull out to a safer spot. He was by far my slowest guy for walking and maneuvering in the woods. He was shocked when he asked what I was doing and I told him I was estimating how long it would take him move to a safer spot and that he was the least common denominator. I would bet in a gym he could probably lift double the next strongest guy and he was at least twice as slow as the next slowest for walking on rough uneven ground. 14 hour shifts need endurance more than brute strength.

 

[TaperPin]

I’ve heard this before, but I haven’t heard it often.

I heard it from former collegiate wrestler and longtime BJJ practitioner Steve Maxwell. He says he was into Nautilus early on and experienced success with it, both in his personal wrestling performance and in training clients. Maxwell says he became enamored with barbell movements and things like kettlebells and clubs for a lot of years but has since circled back and believes machines are a good way to go. Maxwell can still be found on the internet.

The other person who advocated it was a Special Forces Master Sergeant who became a PT after retirement. He advocated high repetition circuit training, often using machines like Bowflex and Soloflex, and rucking to get ready for Special Forces selection. He’s since passed from cancer.

Those viewpoints seem counterintuitive, and certainly go against conventional wisdom, but both those men do seem to have strong BTDT credentials. But I believe it has to be considered, that in addition to using machine based training for GPP, the wrestler practiced wrestling and the Green Beret practiced rucking.

For now, as mentioned, I intend to keep adding some machine movements for a single set at the end of a workout but I don’t intend to rely solely on machines.

Yep, a lot of ways to skin a cat. The ideal is obviously free weights - there’s just so much history and such good results, but dang it takes a lot of time.

I’ve always found porters, sherpas and mountaineers interesting. Just looking at them their muscularity reminds me more of a trail runner. This guy is a porter in Europe resupplying some high camp.

 

[3325]

The ideal is obviously free weights - there’s just so much history and such good results, but dang it takes a lot of time.

And the that can be off putting for some people in some situations.

I was reading about the “novice linear progression” as advocated by Starting Strength coaches. The general advice for getting the most out of the program seems to be don’t engage in conditioning until you’ve completed the program. And the troubleshooting procedure for overcoming a sticking point on the program seems to be eat more, sleep more, and rest longer between sets.