M16 Extractor in Rem 700 action

[jonboatjockey]

I'm having extractor issues with a trued remington 700 action. I'm using Lapua brass and everything is clean. Loads are not extreme, but are a little warm. 140 Berger hybrids over 53g of 4831SC and 156 Bergers over 52g (i think, I don't have my notes in front of me.) The empty brass is no being pulled out of the chamber, but comes out very easily with a cleaning rod. Is the M16 extractor an upgrade (over the regular 700 extractor) and will help this issue? Also if it is worth it, is AREA419 good outfit to have the extractor machining and install done?

 

[Cahunter805]

I’d look at your primary extraction first from what you described. If it’s a RR action and trued I’m sure there isn’t any at all. If it’s an older action and trued it might have very little to none also.
Get the primary extraction fixed with a properly timed bolt handle and see what happens then. Much less expensive then installing a M16 extractor.
Dan at Accutig is who I’d recommend.

Welcome to Accu-TIG

 

[jonboatjockey]

I’d look at your primary extraction first from what you described. If it’s a RR action and trued I’m sure there isn’t any at all. If it’s an older action and trued it might have very little to none also.
Get the primary extraction fixed with a properly timed bolt handle and see what happens then. Much less expensive then installing a M16 extractor.
Dan at Accutig is who I’d recommend.

Welcome to Accu-TIG

Not sure I know what an RR action is. It is an older action though

 

[jonboatjockey]

I should clarify, that the extractor is ripping off of the case rim when, bolt opens normally, just doesn't bring the brass with it.

 

[rayporter]

whoa nellie!

just for giggles back off about 3 grains and see if you still have the problem.
and check the cbto
and check the brass length
do you know the chamber length? or have and idea of the jam length?
does it happen with factory ammo?
is it a factory chamber?

 

[Wrench]

If the rim is getting ripped off itll still get ripped off if you change to a different extractor. The case is yielding to the extractor.

I concur that you need to back way off and regroup.

I built a 375 once and loaded up some middle of the road loads and stuck the bolt on the first shot. That gun ended up shooting damn near minimum data hot. It turned out to be a chubby run of brass and changing brass made all the difference in the world.

 

[jonboatjockey]

I should have specified this is a 6.5X284 Lilja barrel with 1:8 twist, set up for 140 VLD's. these are not hot loads in the gun, and not out of Berger's printed load data. I've had it happen with loads in all ranges, just more prevalent lately. The case is yielding to the extractor, but seems like there is little engagement from the extractor to the brass.

 

[rayporter]

how long since cleaning? maybe a carbon ring?
it sounds like high pressure -even if you dont think it is a hot load. until you cure this there is no good reason to pursue another extractor

seat a bullet and chamber it and see if it extracts.

 

[Wapiti1]

You could have pressure issues as noted above, or a rough/scratched chamber. Neither will be corrected by an extractor change out.

Is it a 3 groove barrel from Lilja? Those build pressure faster than 5 or 6 groove.

Jeremy

 

[HellsCanyon]

@jonboatjockey
Couple things could be going on for sure. First a few questions:

Have you chronographed this load? What's your barrel length and speed?

As alluded to above, does the serial number of your action start with "RR"? If so, they need a new bolt handle TIG'd on to bring back your primary extraction. Even if it's not an "RR" action, if your action was blueprinted the smith likely turned back the action lugs thus pushing your bolt farther rearward and reduces your primary extraction. Definitely an issue and why every action that gets blueprinted here gets a new handle. I've seen guys TIG a small bead onto the front of the bolt handle cam area to contact the receiver camp to help with primary extraction as well, but I don't do that.

I recently did a 28 Nosler rebarrel for a customer who did not want to spend the money on a blueprint job for his R700. His action had adequate primary extraction however his factory extractor was ripping the case rim off the brass. The factory extractor was only getting maybe 20% engagement of the case rim and it would rip it off. I installed a Sako extractor on his bolt and his issues 100% went away.

In summary, could be you've got too hot of a load and need to back off... Or your factory extractor is not engaging properly and is ripping case rims off (almost a given in this situation if you're load isn't too hot), and/or your action doesn't have enough primary extraction.

What does virgin brass look like after firing in your chamber? Does it come out with a smooth surface finish or does it come out with chamber reamer hash marks in it? Too many builders out there leave their chamber surface finish too rough and it doesn't help certain chamberings. Best of luck!

Mike

 

[jonboatjockey]

@jonboatjockey
Couple things could be going on for sure. First a few questions:

Have you chronographed this load? What's your barrel length and speed?

As alluded to above, does the serial number of your action start with "RR"? If so, they need a new bolt handle TIG'd on to bring back your primary extraction. Even if it's not an "RR" action, if your action was blueprinted the smith likely turned back the action lugs thus pushing your bolt farther rearward and reduces your primary extraction. Definitely an issue and why every action that gets blueprinted here gets a new handle. I've seen guys TIG a small bead onto the front of the bolt handle cam area to contact the receiver camp to help with primary extraction as well, but I don't do that.

I recently did a 28 Nosler rebarrel for a customer who did not want to spend the money on a blueprint job for his R700. His action had adequate primary extraction however his factory extractor was ripping the case rim off the brass. The factory extractor was only getting maybe 20% engagement of the case rim and it would rip it off. I installed a Sako extractor on his bolt and his issues 100% went away.

In summary, could be you've got too hot of a load and need to back off... Or your factory extractor is not engaging properly and is ripping case rims off (almost a given in this situation if you're load isn't too hot), and/or your action doesn't have enough primary extraction.

What does virgin brass look like after firing in your chamber? Does it come out with a smooth surface finish or does it come out with chamber reamer hash marks in it? Too many builders out there leave their chamber surface finish too rough and it doesn't help certain chamberings. Best of luck!

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to trouble shoot my issues here. Its not an RR action, its a late 70's early 80's action I believe. From what I can tell and measured the factory extractor is barely grabbing the rim, and looks like a little surface rust in behind it. Brass looks really clean out of the chamber and when I shot up a few Nosler factory loads when it was first built, it struggled/failed to extract those. Brass usually has a scrape mark on the rim, even when I put a round in the camber and eject it without firing it. There seems to be little to no spring on the factory extractor. My chronographed loads are 2920 with and ES of 18 and SD of 8 or 9 (I can't remember for sure) with the 140 berger hybrids and the barrel is a 3 grove Lilja. No hard bolt lift, very faint to no ejector marks, the brass (Lapua) has 3-4 firings on it Im probably getting up there but i don't think its at max pressure or unsafe. I looked at the primary extraction and this action has some for sure, probably not as good as a perfectly timed bolt, but there is contact between the bolt and action cam. I sent the bolt out for an M16 extractor install, as I don't see how that can make things much worse (over having the extractor replaced with a new one), and really I am after reliability, and had some cash for the job.

 

[jonboatjockey]

You could have pressure issues as noted above, or a rough/scratched chamber. Neither will be corrected by an extractor change out.

Is it a 3 groove barrel from Lilja? Those build pressure faster than 5 or 6 groove.

Jeremy

Yes its a 3 groove, how do those build pressure faster that the others?

 

[Wapiti1]

The lands are wider and takes more initial chamber pressure to engrave into the bullet. You can get a spike at the beginning of the pressure curve that you don't get with other barrels. I say that they can produce more pressure, other factors come into play as well. The large land is why they are also supposed to get better life with barrel burner cartridges.

Jeremy

 

[HellsCanyon]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to trouble shoot my issues here. Its not an RR action, its a late 70's early 80's action I believe. From what I can tell and measured the factory extractor is barely grabbing the rim, and looks like a little surface rust in behind it. Brass looks really clean out of the chamber and when I shot up a few Nosler factory loads when it was first built, it struggled/failed to extract those. Brass usually has a scrape mark on the rim, even when I put a round in the camber and eject it without firing it. There seems to be little to no spring on the factory extractor. My chronographed loads are 2920 with and ES of 18 and SD of 8 or 9 (I can't remember for sure) with the 140 berger hybrids and the barrel is a 3 grove Lilja. No hard bolt lift, very faint to no ejector marks, the brass (Lapua) has 3-4 firings on it Im probably getting up there but i don't think its at max pressure or unsafe. I looked at the primary extraction and this action has some for sure, probably not as good as a perfectly timed bolt, but there is contact between the bolt and action cam. I sent the bolt out for an M16 extractor install, as I don't see how that can make things much worse (over having the extractor replaced with a new one), and really I am after reliability, and had some cash for the job.

Copy that! Sounds exactly like that 28 Nosler rebarrel I referenced in my first post. I'd bet better than even money the extractor install fixes your issue. Please report back when it's back.

Mike @ HCA

 

[HellsCanyon]

@jonboatjockey
Any updates on your extraction issues?

Mike

 

[jonboatjockey]

Still waiting on the bolt to come back. Thanks for checking in on me though! I'll be sure to update everyone as soon as it shows up!

 

[Dos Perros]

I have a 6.5 Grendel barrel from Lilja that exhibits similar behavior, just not as bad. Gouges up the rim pretty bad. I'm kinda been praying it's an extractor issue and not a barrel issue since I've been ignoring it this long.

 

[jonboatjockey]

when I stuck a piece of brass in the bolt face there was no give/spring what so ever with the extractor. It was the original extractor from the 70's or 80's with some mild surface rust behind it. Time for a change in my opinion. @Dos Perros is your Grendel on a 700 with a riveted extractor?

 

[Dos Perros]

when I stuck a piece of brass in the bolt face there was no give/spring what so ever with the extractor. It was the original extractor from the 70's or 80's with some mild surface rust behind it. Time for a change in my opinion. @Dos Perros is your Grendel on a 700 with a riveted extractor?

No, it's an AR.

 

[jonboatjockey]

Update! Got the bolt back and machine work looked excellent. Bolt slid right in and functioned flawlessly. However, I took it to the range today and had pressure signs right away with rounds that I have been shooting for two years. I asked AREA 419 before getting this done if i would have to have the rifle re-headspaced after this was done, but now I'm thinking that this is bad information. I have no complaints about the extractor, it pulls the spent rounds out well, so well that i actually had case head separation on the third round.... lovely... but, if its getting re headspace then that can be fixed when the barrel comes off...