looking for guidance

[Sled]

I haven't shot a muzzleloader in about 20 years now. then it was a TC seneca .45 with maxi balls and 90 gr of pyrodex if i recall correctly. a couple years ago i picked up a traditions ultralight and have yet to fire it. initially i was going to try blackhorn and some barnes spitfire tmz 290gr copper projectiles. i think for simplicity i may try pellets but am lost on which ones to start with. also i hear i may need crush sabots for this setup. has anyone had experience with this setup or have a better copper projectile to try. i'd be happy with a simple setup that shoots 3" groups or less at 100 yards.

 

[ENCORE]

IMO go with Blackhorn 209 and for the bullet the Barnes 290gr T-EZ. The T-EZ has an easier loading sabot than does the TMZ. You can charge it with more, or charge it with less, but 110grs volume of BH shoots most 250gr up to 300grs very good.
Good luck.

 

[Sled]

ok, i'll give the t-ez a try and see how they do. are the imr white hots worth looking at over the blackhorn? it seems like i'll be cleaning between shots anyhow. i hear stories about blackhorn burning clean but being difficult to ignite.

 

[ENCORE]

There is no better substitute than BH209. Some rifles do not require swabbing between shots using BH. The rifle will tell you what it likes.

 

[KChunter71]

Changed to bh 209 and my tc encore loves it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[txhunter581]

I have used BH 209 in my Knights and T/C rifles and really like it. With both rifles I can fire up to 30 shots and never swab once. As long as you use a “hot” 209 primer you will prob be fine. CCI magnums or Remington’s STS have done well in my rifles.

 

[Idaholewis]

If i lived close enough to ANYbody that liked BH209 i would Gladly Give them a Full Can, minus 9, maybe 10 Charges? I have ZERO use for BH209! I will be sticking with Real Blackpowder in my New Knight Mountaineer, Swiss 2F to be exact.

I have tried BH209 Twice now, With Wool Felt OP Wads, and “Bore Riding” Target/Bench Bullets, I have actually watched 2 Bullets get Spit out of my Barrel, and Go bouncing down the Rd about 20 Yards. There is NOT enough Compression with my Loads to Reliably ignite it. I am DONE with BH209!! Real Blackpowder Goes off IMMEDIATELY

And with accuracy like this, There is simply no reason for me to mess with BH209

 

[ENCORE]

Never once had an issue with BH209. Its also the propellant that's winning all the competitions. Nothing wrong with it, just like there's nothing wrong with real black powder.
If the rifle and breech plug are designed to shoot BH, its an outstanding propellant.
I'd take it if closers

 

[Idaholewis]

Never once had an issue with BH209. Its also the propellant that's winning all the competitions. Nothing wrong with it, just like there's nothing wrong with real black powder.
If the rifle and breech plug are designed to shoot BH, its an outstanding propellant.
I'd take it if closers

I have NO DOUBT it was my Load, But i shoot that way a TON, Literal TON. And since it was a FLOP for me, I’m Done with it! With proper compression i have no doubt it’s good, I know it is Spoken VERY Highly of, and Used extensively in Competition (Which Means Exactly NOTHING to me Personally) After seeing 2 Bullets POOP out the barrel 20 Yards (From the Primer) and go Bouncing down the Rd, That was ENOUGH for me!! I would NEVER trust it on a Hunt of mine. It is finicky about Compression. Once i have a Bad experience with something, My mind is NOT Easily changed. The good part is, you fella’s that think it’s AWESOME stuff, can have my portion

 

[Idaholewis]

I have been working with a Young Man in Tennessee that just recently Bought a Knight Mountaineer .45/1:20 (Dustin Garrison, The Guy I bought my Rice .45 Cal Barrel from) He is Shooting BH209 and has had the EXACT same problems i have had. He has had a Couple of Bullets barely Spit out of his Barrel as well, From just the Primer going off. I explained to him that Wool Felt (Even Though we are using Oversize) Simply won’t work, Reliably anyway.

What AMAZES me is HOW IN THE WORLD Can Spark from a 209 Shotgun Primer Go Through a Powder Charge and NOT SET IT Off??? That blows my mind!!! The first time i seen it happen, My bullet went about 15-20 Yards, Hit the Ground and Tumbled to a Stop, i sat at my Bench and Actually laughed I asked myself WTF Just happened??? That was the END of BH209 and me RIGHT THERE!! I would NEVER Put trust in it after that, Especially on a Hunt.

It’s not the propellants Fault, They tell you on their Website.

When i talk about “Bore Riding” Bullets, i mean ZERO effort pushing them Down, Just the Weight of the Ramrod alone will take the Bullet to the Powder, My Bullets just “Kiss” the Rifling on the Way Down. I found out quickly that my Target Bullets do NOT Work with BH209, Then ad in my Wool Felt Wads. Simply Put, For MY Application BH209 is the Worst Crap out there!

Below is Copied and Pasted from Western Powder’s Website. Someone that gives a Hoot Should inform them that they are DEAD WRONG about loose Fitting Bullets and Accuracy, THEY COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG!!! I have had 2 different conversations with Lee Shavers (For those that Don’t know, Lee is a 2 time World Champion BPCR, And Muzzleloader Shooter, He competes to 1,000 yards) Lee took the time to talk Bullets, Loading, What to look for, etc. with me. Lee went in to Great Detail with me on 2 Things, Importance of Bullet Bases, And Loading Pressure, or lack there of. Lee Explained that a PERFECT Sized Bullet for HIM, was one that Just “Kissed” The Rifling on the Way Down, He explained that you should NOT have to Push on the Bullet to load it, It should Glide down, Then Give it a Slight Push against the Wad.
I have followed Lee’s Advice to the T and my Results have been STELLAR!! My Targets, and Videos Show Quite clearly that what i am Doing is Working

Western Powder’s Should Contact Lee Shaver’s and inform him That he has been Loading his Bullets Wrong all of these Years, Disregard His pile of trophies, Medals, Plaques, etc.


A muzzleloader is different than a cartridge gun, but many of the principles relative to the propellant are the same. The bullet is seated in the cartridge to create the pressure necessary to propel the bullet. A bullet in a muzzleloader needs to be compressed against the powder. The base of the bullet, or sabot needs to expand to hold the building pressure which propels the bullet. Imagine you placed a bullet 1 inch ahead of the case in a cartridge gun. The bullet most likely would not exit the barrel. This same principle works in a muzzleloader. Loose fitting bullets, like the typical Powerbelts, may be convenient to load, but lack sufficient compression to assure consistent ignition or accuracy.
Because there are no standards in muzzleloading barrels, the diameters vary between all manufacturers and at times within the same manufacturer. A Powerbelt may fit nicely in one and slide to the bottom of another. Just the simple act of carrying your gun in the field may allow the bullet to slide forward and when compression of the powder is lost the result is a misfire or poor accuracy.
We recommend a quality tight fitting sabot for the most consistent accuracy and ignition.

 

[ENCORE]

I slept in this morning, so I may not have read and comprehended the above correctly.

When shooting BH209, bullets that will slide down the bore with just the weight of the ramrod, that WILL cause the shooter headaches. They are just to loose to properly ignite BH209 consistently. This has been known for years. Proper bullet sizing is a requirement.

If one is going to shoot land riding bullets/bullet to bore, the bullets should take a force of 20# to slide down the bore in a CLEAN BORE. They should also be seated firmly. Some use a wad, others don't. But the thing that is known, they need approximately 20# force .

I shot up over 5#'s of BH209 shooting 300gr land riding bullets (Fury) in a .50cal Lothar Walther barrel, all properly sized to load at IIRC 23#. Every charge ignited and accuracy to 300yds was phenomenal. The charges were heavier than production rifles are capable of and much more propellant to completely ignite. A .518 x .060" veggie wad was used. Velocity spread was minimum and averaged 2395fps.

I am now shooting a .45cal with a Rock Creek 1:19 twist barrel, have been shooting Fury 300gr bullets and with a velocity of 2350fps. The bullets are sized to load in a CLEAN BARREL at exactly 19#. I still use a veggie wad and seat the bullet firmly on BH209. Accuracy again is phenomenal out to 500yds.

Keep the loading forces in a CLEAN BARREL to at least 20#, seat it firmly and it'll go bang.

Measuring forces...…….. Some use a set of bathroom scales and carefully attempt to measure the force. My job before retirement required the use of precision equipment, with one being a force gauge, which is what I use to accurately measure my loading force.

 

[OXN939]

ok, i'll give the t-ez a try and see how they do. are the imr white hots worth looking at over the blackhorn? it seems like i'll be cleaning between shots anyhow. i hear stories about blackhorn burning clean but being difficult to ignite.

Second the T-EZ Idea- every blackpowder rifle I've used them in has loved them. I also have had the same issues as Idaholewis with BH209, using the correct breech plug, bullet/sabot combo, and magnum primers... it is significantly harder to ignite than most other black powder substitutes. If you do go the BH 209 route, definitely make sure all the aformentioned variables are straight and then test your load extensively; the last thing you want is a muzzle velocity of 50 feet per second when you're looking at a trophy Utah elk.

 

[Idaholewis]

I slept in this morning, so I may not have read and comprehended the above correctly.

When shooting BH209, bullets that will slide down the bore with just the weight of the ramrod, that WILL cause the shooter headaches. They are just to loose to properly ignite BH209 consistently. This has been known for years. Proper bullet sizing is a requirement.

If one is going to shoot land riding bullets/bullet to bore, the bullets should take a force of 20# to slide down the bore in a CLEAN BORE. They should also be seated firmly. Some use a wad, others don't. But the thing that is known, they need approximately 20# force .

Yep, Like i said Above, BH209 Does NOT work for me, the way i load for Target/Bench. This is the only powder i have seen that requires X amount of force to Reliably ignite.

After seeing the 1st Bullet Exit my Barrel and tumble down the Rd from the Primer Going off, That was enough for me! I would NEVER trust BH209 again!! Especially on an Elk Hunt of a Lifetime, NO WAY IN HELL!! To me, EVERY Elk Hunt is a Hunt of a Lifetime.

To the OP, If you decide to go with BH209 for your Hunt, I suggest you get yourself a Gauge Like George has (Since he made that one, You won’t find 1 like it) Just Carry a Bathroom Scale in your Elk Pack so you can make sure to get at least 20# of Force What a JOKE!

 

[Idaholewis]

Don’t trust a Wool Felt Over Powder Wad with BH209 either. I sent the Young man i have been helping in Tennessee some of my Bullets, I explained to him that i have had my ABSOLUTE Best Results with 1/8” Wool Felt OP Wad Material with Grease Groove Bullets. I talked to him the Evening he Shot them, He said my Bullets went down TIGHT, He felt that they were a bit to tight to get a Reload in a Hunting Situation? (He ordered a Swinglock Sizer) Dustin said the Wool Felt Wads with my Bullets were “Hit n Miss” FAIL? Even as tight as my Bullets are in his Rifle. But when he Switched to my Vege Fiber Wads they all went off, My Bullets and Vege Wads ended the Day with his Best Group.

Point being, DON’T Trust 1/8” Wool Felt with BH209, Even EXTREME oversized like i use, and SWEAR By (Example being, 50 Cal Wool felt Wads in a .45 Bore) EVEN With a Super Tight Fitting Bullet, Dustin had it Fail 2 or 3 times Trying to make it work.

 

[ENCORE]

I know you don't like BH for your specific style of shooting and/or hunting. However, it is working for 10's of thousands of shooters using it for just target, for major competitions and for hunting.
And for major competitions using inline rifles, BH spanks black powder like its a red headed step child.

I think everyone likely agrees, if you want to use heavy lead bullets, black is most likely the better choice. On the other hand, 250 to 325gr jacketed bullets and BH209, with compatible rifles and correct procedures works perfectly.
Each individual and his or her hunting style, makes a significant difference in the propellants and bullets they use. Just the same as the area of the country they happen to hunt can make a significant difference.

I remember and likely you also, where some would say shooting pellets was the worst thing a person could do, yet I was shooting pellets exclusively for awhile and getting 1.5" groups at 400yds. Are they the best, absolutely not but, I've dotted many an "I" at long range with pellets, even to 500yds.

A gauge isn't necessary. As long as the bullet goes down with at minimum a 1 hand FIRM push, preferably an easy 2 hand push, you'll be getting enough pressure for loading in a CLEAN barrel. And it can go back to the continued argument of primers, where some get buy with just a WIN209, but Western still recommends a magnum primer. Oh, LRMP's ignite BH very well.

I have absolutely 100% confidence that if I were hunting elk, it would be with BH209 (where legal) and 100% confidence it would ignite properly and send the bullet I loaded directly to the POA.

Different strokes for different folks...……..

Wads...……….. Doug S. who is a 3 time National champion, uses wool wads and 84grs by weight BH shooting competition, with a bullet that seats with one hand firm loading force. On the other hand, Jeff F., also a champion uses a veggie wad with 120grs volume of BH, again with one hand firm loading force.

 

[PAhunter58]

The guy from Idaho certainly makes a compelling argument based on HIS set-up. I've shot muzzleloaders for 40 years from flintlocks to the latest in-lines. I too have switched to BH209 after years of shooting almost everything else. With the right breech, primers, bullets (Barnes 290 TEZ), I've cut my share of holes out to 300+ yards. I admire the guy from Idaho and his passion. To each his own. I know on my next elk hunt upcoming, if I miss my elk of a lifetime at 300 yards, it won't be BH209's fault.

 

[Idaholewis]

Confidence in your Equipment is a MAJOR Key in this, As is with most any sport. After MY testing of BH209 with my OVERSIZE Wool Wads, and “Slip Fit” Bullets, it Simply does NOT Work, Not Reliably anyway. After my Bad Experiences, i have ZERO Confidence in BH209, I explained my Hands on experience with it, and spoke my opinion of the Powder.

More power to you guy’s that use, and Swear By it! I am CERTAINLY not trying to talk anyone out of Shooting it. The Ole Saying, “One Man’s Trash is another Man’s Treasure” That applies here

I have had STELLAR Luck with Swiss Real Blackpowder, With Jacketed Sabotless Bullets, and My BIG Lead, I have a YouTube Channel Full of my shooting to Back me up. Swiss Real Blackpowder is the CRYSTAL clear winner for me, It works EVERY SINGLE time, I don’t have to Think about Loading Pressure, etc. When i pull the Trigger it goes “BOOM” IMMEDIATELY, and when i do my part, it prints out Impressive little Groups