Long range muzzleloader for AZ and NM

[OXN939]

Also i think a 325gr 45cal bullet is not really comparable to a 223 or 243 bullet at similar fpe. The accuracy of these guns is also amazing. 1/2 moa is not out of the norm. It's really just a rifle. The only thing in common that it has with a standard muzzleloader is that it's loaded from the muzzle.

Agreed. The comparison I made was strictly in reference to those rounds' kinetic energy. And, if a ~300 grain round has low enough KE that it's comparable to a .22... you're probably not getting the kind of expansion necessary to make ethical kills.

 

[ENCORE]

That's a very impressive load shown in that chart! At 500, it has almost the energy of a reduced recoil .243 varmint load.

Seriously, all I'm saying is that there is a terminal ballistic component to your last observation. Yes, muzzleloaders have come a long way recently. They still require a huge investment of resources to use ethically at anywhere near what is referred to as "long range" these days, and the reality of their terminal performance at those distances is worth a serious look. I wouldn't shoot an elk with something that takes that much effort to push into the category of "marginal."

Yup, long range isn't cheap, nor easy, nor should every shooter attempt long range shots at any game animal.

Many deer and elk have been harvested this year with custom muzzleloaders and at long range.
It isn't daddy's flint or CVA any more.

The professional bullet makers are VERY good at making bullets that expand properly and at distance.

Pumping up one of those customs a little with SML

 

[bradb]

I was at Hollis's (center punch usa) was right at 1.5 lb differance between fluted Brux and carbon barrel. Very tiny profile differences

 

[LWH723]

That's because you were comparing it to a #17 heavy varmint contour. The spiral fluted modified sendero contour that I use on my builds is same weight as a HC carbon wrapped.

 

[GotDraw?]

@bradb

I fully agree w/your statement below-- which then begs the obvious question: Why should such muzzleloaders be entitled to a special season when they are basically no longer handicapped vs a typical, off-the-shelf high-power rifle??? Were muzzleloader seasons created contemplating these hunters shooting 400yd, 500yd,-700yd muzzleloader shots? Why not just toss them in with rifle season? Yeah, I know the follow-up shot is slower but the reality is that there's now almost NO handicap vs an off the shelf rifle shooting factory loads.

JL

My muzz, with smokeless powder, where legal, has 1923 ft lbs of energy at 500. That's a hot load in 45acp!

Like 1099ft lbs with blackhorn

Really have to change the way you think of these muzzle-loaders in the traditional ideas.
They are single shot, case less, high power rifles, loaded from muzzle

 

[ENCORE]

Let us not get into the mind set that where everyone went ballistic when compound bows came out and the long bow and recurve shooters went totally off their rocker nuts.

This type of stuff only divides shooters and hunters.

There's not a single thing wrong with someone wanting to hunt with a flint or percussion rifle. Quite frankly, some of the percussion rifles are extremely capable of long range, as evident by many of the 1,000yd matches held each year.

As well as there is nothing wrong with someone wanting to use a modern inline, or a custom modern inline rifle.

There is room for ALL, and if some don't believe that, they're part of the problem.

Young people today simply don't care for traditional muzzleloaders, but prefer modern inline rifles. That FACT can not be disputed. Those who may like to dispute that, might want to check into the loss of membership at the NMLRA over the last decade. The NMLRA has now accepted modern inline rifles and have created matches specific to them to increase membership and participation. I thank the NMLRA for that.

You won't see a modern inline shooter bashing a traditional shooter, but the traditionalist never stops bashing modern inline rifles.
However, traditionalists that are accepting of modern inline shooters, are finding that many of those shooting modern inline rifles, can become very interested in traditional muzzleloaders. There's a lesson right there!

 

[bradb]

I think encore covered it above.
Where we draw the technology lines is always a big debate and i go circles on it also. Really not a debate i am getting into

 

[GotDraw?]

Valid position. I can agree.

JL

Let us not get into the mind set that where everyone went ballistic when compound bows came out and the long bow and recurve shooters went totally off their rocker nuts.

This type of stuff only divides shooters and hunters.

There's not a single thing wrong with someone wanting to hunt with a flint or percussion rifle. Quite frankly, some of the percussion rifles are extremely capable of long range, as evident by many of the 1,000yd matches held each year.

As well as there is nothing wrong with someone wanting to use a modern inline, or a custom modern inline rifle.

There is room for ALL, and if some don't believe that, they're part of the problem.

Young people today simply don't care for traditional muzzleloaders, but prefer modern inline rifles. That FACT can not be disputed. Those who may like to dispute that, might want to check into the loss of membership at the NMLRA over the last decade. The NMLRA has now accepted modern inline rifles and have created matches specific to them to increase membership and participation. I thank the NMLRA for that.

You won't see a modern inline shooter bashing a traditional shooter, but the traditionalist never stops bashing modern inline rifles.
However, traditionalists that are accepting of modern inline shooters, are finding that many of those shooting modern inline rifles, can become very interested in traditional muzzleloaders. There's a lesson right there!

 

[Idaholewis]

I have nothing in the World against inline Rifles, Knight Rifles has me on their Website (Their YouTube Channel) With my Old .45 Cal 1:20 Twist Knight Mountaineer at 600 Yards. They are FLAT OUT Awesome Rifles!! That said, My preference is Sidelock Muzzleloaders, Just what i Choose.

I am glad we have the Rules we have in Idaho for “Muzzleloader ONLY Hunts” And here again i have NOTHING against inline Muzzleloaders Joining these Hunts, When they are Setup Western legal to Hunt here in our “Muzzleloader ONLY Hunts” (No Scopes, 209s, Sabots, etc.) When you take these things away From the inline, and Put them on the Same Playing Field as Sidelock Muzzleloaders, Their is no advantage to the inline at this point. I would Shoot against them ANY DAY with my Fast Twist Sidelocks that I PERSONALLY have Set up.

The Problem i would have is the Fella’s with DECKED OUT inlines that felt they should have a Dedicated Hunting Season, That is BS!! I would Sign AGAINST that ANY, and EVERY Day!! The Decked Out inline Rifles BELONG with the Centerfires in Regular General Firearm Seasons!!

My only Regret with inline Rifles is that I Didn’t have a Custom Rifle Built, and Go SMOKELESS All the Way. When you look at What those things are Capable of, and Doing? UNREAL is an understatement!!! They are FAR FAR SUPERIOR to Centerfire Rifles, No Brass Cases to deal with (WEAK LINK) Rifling Lands to Jump, Etc. Look at Hankins .45 Video (Worlds Most powerful Muzzleloader) That BEAST is Cranking out 350 Grain Bullets at 3,800 FPS, BLOWING THE DOORS OFF A .338 LAPUA MAGNUM, It’s not even Remotely Close!! Heck, Look at Bestill’s Little .40 Cal “Woody” Smokeless, Jeff is Shooting 1 Mile (1,760 Yards) with that Rifle. it is Also SPANKING a .338 Lapua Magnum!!
These things are incredible to Say the least, and PRECISELY what i would do if i were ever to venture back toward inlines. But they ABSOLUTELY do NOT Belong in “Muzzleloader ONLY Hunts” They Belong with Centerfire Rifles, in General Firearm Seasons, PLAIN N SIMPLE

 

[Idaholewis]

Anyone that might not know what i am Talking about above, When i spoke of Smokeless Muzzleloaders, and what they can do? Check this thing out! 350 Grain Bullet Traveling at 3,800 FPS, He SIZZLES a Hole Right Through AR500 Steel like it’s not even there, UNREAL!! They have been pushed Farther than this, Muzzle Breaks Destroyed

Here is that Rifle Hunting, go to the 21 Minute mark and look at the Damage to the Front of that Deer. I seen him EVAPORATE a Deers Head with this thing

 

[ENCORE]

That's exactly the attitude that got the NMLRA in trouble with its dwindling membership. "My way or the highway" just doesn't make others proud and does NOTHING but help divide shooters.
Thank goodness a few people at the NMLRA have changed their attitudes about modern inline rifles, which may just save it down the road. Membership is slowly starting to increase, new matches have more shooters interested and new records are being set because of modern inline rifles.

You're not going to take smart phones away from any of these younger folks, or adults for that matter, and hand them a rotary phone and think they'll accept that. The future and technology moves along every day and rather you like it or not, its just the way it is and will remain. You either allow young, new hunters the ability to use their muzzleloader of choice, or lose them forever. PLAIN N SIMPLE.

 

[Idaholewis]

I think it’s AWESOME that the NMLRA Holds inline Matches!! And I think it’s ABSOLUTELY Ridiculous of the Traditional People to throw Fits over it!! I seen a thread on another forum where Traditionalist Folks we’re going AWOL over inlines being allowed at Friendship, They had Given up on their NMLRA Membership over it and all??? UNREAL, Bunch of Cry Babies!! Inline Rifles have JUST as much right to Shoot/Compete in their OWN leagues as anything else!!! Traditionalist Folks And Their Hobby is NOT ANYMORE important than the Men and Women that Choose to Shoot, And Enjoy Their Inline Rifles. There is PLENTY of Room for Both!!

My ONLY disagreement would be DECKED Out inline Rifles like i Mentioned Above Being allowed in Western Rules, like here in Idaho “Muzzleloader ONLY Hunts” When Decked Out With Optics, HIGH BC Bullets Etc. they DO NOT Belong in those Hunts!! They belong in General Firearm Seasons

Here in Idaho, Unit 1 anyway, The DECKED out inline Rifles have from Oct 10th Through Dec 1st For Deer, It is Called “General Any Weapon Seasons” You can hunt with a Centerfire, Bow, Muzzleloader of Your Choice, Everyone out there together

 

[Macegl]

That's exactly the attitude that got the NMLRA in trouble with its dwindling membership. "My way or the highway" just doesn't make others proud and does NOTHING but help divide shooters.
Thank goodness a few people at the NMLRA have changed their attitudes about modern inline rifles, which may just save it down the road. Membership is slowly starting to increase, new matches have more shooters interested and new records are being set because of modern inline rifles.

You're not going to take smart phones away from any of these younger folks, or adults for that matter, and hand them a rotary phone and think they'll accept that. The future and technology moves along every day and rather you like it or not, its just the way it is and will remain. You either allow young, new hunters the ability to use their muzzleloader of choice, or lose them forever. PLAIN N SIMPLE.

I have to agree with Lewis, our western muzzleloader seasons were not structured around these 500+ yd muzzleloaders. In many cases we are given better dates, either earlier or later (many in the rut), and longer seasons. The only way to allow ever increasing technology, is to reduce opportunity i.e. permits. In my opinion this reduction of opportunity will do more damage in the long run regarding hunter recruitment than restricting technology. How many young hunters will we retain if they can only get a tag every 5 years?

In areas where game is abundant, and eating itself out of house and home, I'm all for these technological marvels.

In the west mule deer have been on the decline for years. If we want to continue to have opportunity, we are going to have to consider limiting ourselves.

As for targets, lets use whatever we want. Paper is cheap and the opportunities are endless!!

 

[OXN939]

I seen him EVAPORATE a Deers Head with this thing

That video is probably equal parts hilarious and sad. Lolol "muzzleloader"

I agree almost completely with your assessment of blackpowder rules- you have to draw the line somewhere, and I think magnified optics is a good place to do it in western states. My *one* digression from Idaho's rules would be the lead projectiles thing. Seems pretty absurd for the government to mandate that I put toxic metal microfragments into my food if I want wild game.

 

[ENCORE]

Flint and percussion make up only 10%, or maybe less by now, of muzzleloaders used for hunting.
Its been estimated that 4,000,000 hunters hunt with muzzleloaders. That's 3.6 million using modern inline rifles.
Division isn't going to make anything better.

 

[ENCORE]

Me being a Target Shooter almost exclusively with Muzzleloaders, I think the Smokeless Muzzleloaders are FLAT OUT AMAZING/AWESOME!! I wish i had Skipped my Knight Mountaineer and had a Custom Smokeless Muzzleloader Built. I would be out Shooting a Mile and Beyond! That Hankins Rifle Above in the Videos i posted is RIGHT on the Heels of a .50 BMG (Browning Machine Gun) For Muzzle Energy, I find That BEYOND Impressive!!

But i do NOT Believe These type of Muzzleloaders Deserve a “Special Muzzleloader Hunt” Just Because they are Pushing a Bullet down the Muzzle with a Rod? That is BEYOND BULLSH$T!! These things are BLOWING THE DOORS Off Modern Centerfire Cartridge Guns, Average Cartridge Guns aren’t even REMOTELY Close to These Rigs!!! Even the .338 Lapua Magnum has NO CHANCE against these Smokeless Muzzleloaders!!! I have NO PROBLEMS with these Rigs Hunting, NONE WHATSOEVER! But they Need to do so in a GENERAL FIREARM SEASON

As for Regular inline Rifles, they have Always been Welcome here on “Muzzleloader ONLY Hunts” as far as i know? As long as they are Setup IDAHO Western Legal. No Scopes, 209s, Sabots, and Meet Powder Requirements.



What a CROCK OF GARBAGE George!! If this is REALLY the Case? Then Might as well Petition that ALL Waters, Rivers, Creeks, Lakes, Etc. Be Allowed to use Gill Nets Across them to ya think? After all, If the “Young Kids” Are forced to use a Fishing Pole we might “Lose them Forever” huh? LOL, WHAT A JOKE!! But I would expect nothing less coming from you

How about Teach your Kids Good Sportsmanship/Ethics, And to obey the Laws. TRY THAT